What Are We Disagreeing About?
Here's another conversation that went with a different fellow from the same person's page. The original post got deleted and this was the follow-up explaining why it was deleted. WM is very reluctant to share his feelings and keeps convincing me of putting words in his mouth. I give him the opportunity to explain himself but he rarely does.
Original Post:
DZ: Thursday at 2:54pm via mobile · Actions always speak louder than words. What I posted last night was construed as hateful and that was not my intention. I deleted it, not for self-preservation, but because I should've followed James 1:19 - "My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry."
Comments:
JR: U don't have a hateful bone in your body, dimples. Some things are just better left unsaid...
JR: Your verse is perfect and humanly...so difficult, but important that we all try and try again
CM: Don't apologize for what you believe.
TS: I'm pretty sure you don't really believe this. Maybe this the last verse you quoted (Romans 1:18-32) slipped by you: "Although [those who have exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones] know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
DZ: CM, I'm not ashamed of what I believe in and TS, you can quote scripture all you want to me, but I'm not wavering from my beliefs. Even Satan used to quote scripture for his purposes.
TS: Romans 1:32 was part of the passage you originally referenced in the deleted post to make your point.... I'm only repeating what you said. If you don't like what it says, maybe you should reconsider your original post. I know you're not a hateful person. The Bible has a lot of good passages, but sometimes the culture of the time it was written gets in the way.
WM: DZ, face it that we will be considered bigots even though we have always treated others with the utmost respect and never treated others based off our opinions, because we disagree with homosexual marriage, people will call us bigots. Ironically we will be treated like homosexuals have been treated for years bec ause of our views. I will continue to treat all people with respect dispite not having validation for my beliefs and I would bet that you will do the same. Someday we will be rewarded for our tolerance and the love we give without conditions.
TS: Homosexuals tend to treat others with respect if they themselves are treated with the same respect. Having an opinion on something that has no affect on you but somebody else is not respecting those people. Tolerance should include accepting gay marriage. It doesn't have to be a religious tradition, but a simple civil union recognized by the state.
WM: First of all TS you are obviously looking for a fight on here. Secondly without knowing my religous beliefs or my political thinking, who are you to tell me it has no effect on me. Third, I said we will continue to love people which I think is better than mere tolerance, even though we disagree with homosexual marriage. Just because I disagree with it does not mean I cannot treat people with tolerance, respect and love. Hell I disagee with many of the things I have done in my life. Does not mean that I hate myself. A sin is a sin no one worse than another and I have done my fair share and will likely have more in the future. Hence why even though I disagree with something I can still show love because I hope to recieve the same grace from others the next time I do something that is considered a sin.
TS: So what effect does it have on you?
WM: TS, I am not going to subject my beliefs on how it effects me or my family to your judgemental stances. I give you a sound, logical, explanation of a dialectical dilemma christians face and you just want to continue the debate. I posted my original post in support of my friend and fellow christian because I know he will continue to show the world his love. I have no desire to continue any such debate with you.
TS: That sounds more like hate and intolerance. And I thought it was a pretty simple question. One you probably could have answered using fewer words than used above. I'm not looking for a fight. I just wonder how a religion based on love and compassion is done only if you stack up to some kind of criteria. Where then do we draw this love-hate line? Why not just accept everyone for who they are?
WM: You essentially call me hateful and intolerant and claim you are not looking for a fight? I dont mind typing pal. Based off your posts, I am confident that you will judge my answer and I dont feel like being judged...you know kind of like homosexuals dont want to be judged. But since you persist I will answer your question and I guess we will see if you can act with the same level of tolerance that you are requesting of everyone else. As a christian my faith is in scripture. As with all sins I fear that such sins will keep me and or my family from eternal life. I obviously would like to have eternal life with my loved ones. If society continues as is with many different topics I fear that it may have an impact on my children and they may not achieve eternal life. So while many people think only about life and how it effects us now, I am thinking about eternity which ironically is what most christians believe the romans scripture is referencing. Eternal death is not death that we know in our life time as mortals.
TS: There's a big difference between intolerance and the intolerance of intolerance. I'm judging (more like questioning) your judgement of homosexuals based on your how you think other people should live. I'm not saying that people should live one way or another, just that people should be left to their own devices as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
The sins of others has no bearing on you or your family unless you are harmed by those sins. Gay marriages do not harm you in life or in an afterlife. We're talking about a lifestyle. There are plenty of people who get married in a variety of manners and under the auspices of various other religions. Are you going to also judge those marriages? As for your children or potential children, they're yours, you can raise them however you'd like. I may judge your choices, but almost everyone judges every other parents' choices. But really, it's your prerogative.
So if "death" was just seen as "eternal death", then how do you spin the fact that the Bible condones polygamy?
WM: Like I said, you are looking for fight. If I were to talk to you in the way you hav e already stereotyped me in your mind would you be gratified? I judge no man or woman for people and their behaviors are two seperate things. And lastly do not preach to me wether or not sins of others have an impact on my family. You have no clue.
TS: I don't? How about some Bible verses to guide me?
WM: As I was afraid of, you lack the tolerance that you wish others to have.
TS: I want people to live how they want to live. You don't. You believe there should be laws that dictate how other people should live. Where you have the full right to disagree with those ideas, you shouldn't be able to govern other people's lives. That, again, is called the intolerance of intolerance. So you are correct in that regard. If I was to start making laws about how you live, say, that you had to worship Allah, you might also believe me to be intolerant. Here I'm only stating that you shouldn't be able to dictate how others live. Worship God, worship Allah, worship Vishnu, I don't care. Just don't force your beliefs on other people.
WM: Hey TS...or should I just call you angry guy? Where in any of my previous posts did I say I dont want people to live how they want to live? And where did I mention anything about laws dictating what rights people should have. Just because I disagree with gay marriage and of course would love for society to follow my morals and values does not mean I am going to go out of my way or take any sort of action to keep gay and lesbians feom marrying. Once again your stereotype of me as a christian has you talking out your ass. I have not even stated in any of my posts here whether I am for or against legalizing gay marriage but because of my religion you have made assumptions. The world is not as black and white as you think. Much of the world exists in the grey.
TS: Angry? Who's angry? I'm just stating my opinion. You also keep saying that I'm here for a fight. That's not the case either. I'm just trying to figure out why other people think the way they do. And every time I ask for your opinion, you refuse or reluctantly give your opinion. Then when I try to extrapolate from something what you say, you give me the "you don't know me" and offer little in return. If anything it seems like you're trying to goad me into anger by calling me names. Unfortunately it's not working so well for you.
But as for your question and statement, "where did I mention anything about laws dictating what rights people should have", and " I have not even stated in any of my posts here whether I am for or against legalizing gay marriage."
I got this from your original comment in this thread: " because we disagree with homosexual marriage, people will call us bigots."
Now in the context of the Supreme Court finding it unconstitutional for the federal government to discriminate against those who would like to marry someone of the same sex, and the fact that you said you disagree with the decision (or at least the marriage itself), I extrapolated that this meant that you were NOT ok with the decision and you would have instead appreciated that the vote would have been upheld. I suppose I took that final leap of faith to think that you were inferring that you would have appreciated the vote to stand as you're somewhat implying, it's starting to sounds like I may have erred.
Although perplexingly enough, if this is the case, then you should actually be in favor of the recent decision so that instead means we're just sitting here typing over semantics. And if that is the case, then I apologize for wasting your time, but I have a feeling that you're just trying to give me the run-around by being elusive with your words and that you actually would rather not allow gay marriage. If that's not the case then I apologize for assuming so. But the fact is that you haven't told me explicitly either way.
Also, I think you're making equal amounts of assumptions about me and what I think. I realize that not all Christians are homophobic and teach love and acceptance of all God's children. That, my friend, is gray area. This is because the Bible teaches in both the Old and New Testament that homosexuals are in the wrong in the eyes of God, but some people have come to understand the antiquity of the source and feel that it is time for a change in how society thinks about the variety among its individuals. You're also attempting to denigrate my intelligence, but I believe that I have offered quite a bit more to this conversation than you have. Or at least I'm much more open with sharing what I think and feel. Feel free to do the same.
Original Post:
DZ: Thursday at 2:54pm via mobile · Actions always speak louder than words. What I posted last night was construed as hateful and that was not my intention. I deleted it, not for self-preservation, but because I should've followed James 1:19 - "My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry."
Comments:
JR: U don't have a hateful bone in your body, dimples. Some things are just better left unsaid...
JR: Your verse is perfect and humanly...so difficult, but important that we all try and try again
CM: Don't apologize for what you believe.
TS: I'm pretty sure you don't really believe this. Maybe this the last verse you quoted (Romans 1:18-32) slipped by you: "Although [those who have exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones] know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
DZ: CM, I'm not ashamed of what I believe in and TS, you can quote scripture all you want to me, but I'm not wavering from my beliefs. Even Satan used to quote scripture for his purposes.
TS: Romans 1:32 was part of the passage you originally referenced in the deleted post to make your point.... I'm only repeating what you said. If you don't like what it says, maybe you should reconsider your original post. I know you're not a hateful person. The Bible has a lot of good passages, but sometimes the culture of the time it was written gets in the way.
WM: DZ, face it that we will be considered bigots even though we have always treated others with the utmost respect and never treated others based off our opinions, because we disagree with homosexual marriage, people will call us bigots. Ironically we will be treated like homosexuals have been treated for years bec ause of our views. I will continue to treat all people with respect dispite not having validation for my beliefs and I would bet that you will do the same. Someday we will be rewarded for our tolerance and the love we give without conditions.
TS: Homosexuals tend to treat others with respect if they themselves are treated with the same respect. Having an opinion on something that has no affect on you but somebody else is not respecting those people. Tolerance should include accepting gay marriage. It doesn't have to be a religious tradition, but a simple civil union recognized by the state.
WM: First of all TS you are obviously looking for a fight on here. Secondly without knowing my religous beliefs or my political thinking, who are you to tell me it has no effect on me. Third, I said we will continue to love people which I think is better than mere tolerance, even though we disagree with homosexual marriage. Just because I disagree with it does not mean I cannot treat people with tolerance, respect and love. Hell I disagee with many of the things I have done in my life. Does not mean that I hate myself. A sin is a sin no one worse than another and I have done my fair share and will likely have more in the future. Hence why even though I disagree with something I can still show love because I hope to recieve the same grace from others the next time I do something that is considered a sin.
TS: So what effect does it have on you?
WM: TS, I am not going to subject my beliefs on how it effects me or my family to your judgemental stances. I give you a sound, logical, explanation of a dialectical dilemma christians face and you just want to continue the debate. I posted my original post in support of my friend and fellow christian because I know he will continue to show the world his love. I have no desire to continue any such debate with you.
TS: That sounds more like hate and intolerance. And I thought it was a pretty simple question. One you probably could have answered using fewer words than used above. I'm not looking for a fight. I just wonder how a religion based on love and compassion is done only if you stack up to some kind of criteria. Where then do we draw this love-hate line? Why not just accept everyone for who they are?
WM: You essentially call me hateful and intolerant and claim you are not looking for a fight? I dont mind typing pal. Based off your posts, I am confident that you will judge my answer and I dont feel like being judged...you know kind of like homosexuals dont want to be judged. But since you persist I will answer your question and I guess we will see if you can act with the same level of tolerance that you are requesting of everyone else. As a christian my faith is in scripture. As with all sins I fear that such sins will keep me and or my family from eternal life. I obviously would like to have eternal life with my loved ones. If society continues as is with many different topics I fear that it may have an impact on my children and they may not achieve eternal life. So while many people think only about life and how it effects us now, I am thinking about eternity which ironically is what most christians believe the romans scripture is referencing. Eternal death is not death that we know in our life time as mortals.
TS: There's a big difference between intolerance and the intolerance of intolerance. I'm judging (more like questioning) your judgement of homosexuals based on your how you think other people should live. I'm not saying that people should live one way or another, just that people should be left to their own devices as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
The sins of others has no bearing on you or your family unless you are harmed by those sins. Gay marriages do not harm you in life or in an afterlife. We're talking about a lifestyle. There are plenty of people who get married in a variety of manners and under the auspices of various other religions. Are you going to also judge those marriages? As for your children or potential children, they're yours, you can raise them however you'd like. I may judge your choices, but almost everyone judges every other parents' choices. But really, it's your prerogative.
So if "death" was just seen as "eternal death", then how do you spin the fact that the Bible condones polygamy?
WM: Like I said, you are looking for fight. If I were to talk to you in the way you hav e already stereotyped me in your mind would you be gratified? I judge no man or woman for people and their behaviors are two seperate things. And lastly do not preach to me wether or not sins of others have an impact on my family. You have no clue.
TS: I don't? How about some Bible verses to guide me?
WM: As I was afraid of, you lack the tolerance that you wish others to have.
TS: I want people to live how they want to live. You don't. You believe there should be laws that dictate how other people should live. Where you have the full right to disagree with those ideas, you shouldn't be able to govern other people's lives. That, again, is called the intolerance of intolerance. So you are correct in that regard. If I was to start making laws about how you live, say, that you had to worship Allah, you might also believe me to be intolerant. Here I'm only stating that you shouldn't be able to dictate how others live. Worship God, worship Allah, worship Vishnu, I don't care. Just don't force your beliefs on other people.
WM: Hey TS...or should I just call you angry guy? Where in any of my previous posts did I say I dont want people to live how they want to live? And where did I mention anything about laws dictating what rights people should have. Just because I disagree with gay marriage and of course would love for society to follow my morals and values does not mean I am going to go out of my way or take any sort of action to keep gay and lesbians feom marrying. Once again your stereotype of me as a christian has you talking out your ass. I have not even stated in any of my posts here whether I am for or against legalizing gay marriage but because of my religion you have made assumptions. The world is not as black and white as you think. Much of the world exists in the grey.
TS: Angry? Who's angry? I'm just stating my opinion. You also keep saying that I'm here for a fight. That's not the case either. I'm just trying to figure out why other people think the way they do. And every time I ask for your opinion, you refuse or reluctantly give your opinion. Then when I try to extrapolate from something what you say, you give me the "you don't know me" and offer little in return. If anything it seems like you're trying to goad me into anger by calling me names. Unfortunately it's not working so well for you.
But as for your question and statement, "where did I mention anything about laws dictating what rights people should have", and " I have not even stated in any of my posts here whether I am for or against legalizing gay marriage."
I got this from your original comment in this thread: " because we disagree with homosexual marriage, people will call us bigots."
Now in the context of the Supreme Court finding it unconstitutional for the federal government to discriminate against those who would like to marry someone of the same sex, and the fact that you said you disagree with the decision (or at least the marriage itself), I extrapolated that this meant that you were NOT ok with the decision and you would have instead appreciated that the vote would have been upheld. I suppose I took that final leap of faith to think that you were inferring that you would have appreciated the vote to stand as you're somewhat implying, it's starting to sounds like I may have erred.
Although perplexingly enough, if this is the case, then you should actually be in favor of the recent decision so that instead means we're just sitting here typing over semantics. And if that is the case, then I apologize for wasting your time, but I have a feeling that you're just trying to give me the run-around by being elusive with your words and that you actually would rather not allow gay marriage. If that's not the case then I apologize for assuming so. But the fact is that you haven't told me explicitly either way.
Also, I think you're making equal amounts of assumptions about me and what I think. I realize that not all Christians are homophobic and teach love and acceptance of all God's children. That, my friend, is gray area. This is because the Bible teaches in both the Old and New Testament that homosexuals are in the wrong in the eyes of God, but some people have come to understand the antiquity of the source and feel that it is time for a change in how society thinks about the variety among its individuals. You're also attempting to denigrate my intelligence, but I believe that I have offered quite a bit more to this conversation than you have. Or at least I'm much more open with sharing what I think and feel. Feel free to do the same.
Labels: acceptance, DOMA, gay marriage, intolerance, religion
