Here is where it switches to just a one-on-one conversation. I'm not sure why people can't have a conversation in public if they are so adamant about their convictions. Here it begins:
JB: Travis,
first I want to say again that I appreciate the conversation we’ve had.
These types of issues can often get passionate but I think we’ve all
kept a pretty good cool throughout. Here are a few more of my thoughts
essentially geared toward some questions you’ve raised – they are more
explanatory in nature so don’t feel like you need to respond (although
you are certainly welcome to). I wouldn’t mind meeting you for coffee
sometime when you are in town, (but not necessarily to debate;) it
sounds like the work you do (and your travels) are fascinating and I
wouldn’t mind hearing about them sometime. Anyway …
1.
Concerning the slavery thing – yes, slavery was much different in the
Roman world than what our modern understanding of it is – it is not an
apples to apples comparison. Certainly there were some horrific aspects
(like the gladiatorial games) but this was not the typical form of
slavery and that type of thing (killing for sport) is certainly
condemned in the Bible. Aside from this though, there were indeed many
who preferred and willingly stayed as slaves in the Roman world since it
meant a better life for them. Here is a link to an article which I
think gives a pretty good explanation between modern (or recent) slavery
and slavery during the Roman world. It is rather lengthy (so skim as
you please) but it is solid and provides many good sources:
(
http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslavent.html).
I say all this just so you have an understanding of why I can be
adamantly against modern slavery but still think that certain forms if
it in the ancient world, though not preferred, were not necessarily
evil. You may still not agree and that’s fine.
2. Concerning
“because God’s word says it’s wrong” – I can understand you do not like
this response from Christians but it is foundational in nature. I’m not
saying this because I have no answer for you; I’m saying it because
God’s word is the foundation and standard of my morality. You earlier
said Christians base morality on what God says and non-Christians on “do
what you want unless it hurts somebody” but surely you see this is not
the case. Non-Christians (religious or otherwise) have a myriad of
different standards for right and wrong. Some certainly hold to the one
you mentioned but others hold to “if it feels good do it” or “survival
of the fittest, I’m going to do whatever is best for me to advance
myself and crush anyone who is in the way, etc” just to name some common
ones – so which one is right? And what authority (rhetorically
speaking) do you or I have to tell someone they are wrong and that our
view is correct? That’s why I point to God’s word, because I am
certainly not the standard or authority, He is.
3. Concerning
science in general. Even based off of the article that you sent (which
was interesting by the way but still speculative), it is clear that
there is no scientific agreement on this. The fact that there are people
who are former homosexuals is also very telling. Also concerning
dinosaurs, yes I believe that man and dinosaurs existed together
(although admittedly not all Christians agree on this). I think there is
plenty of scientific evidence to support this, I didn’t send you a
bunch of articles/resources because I figured it would be fruitless –
just as if you sent me a bunch of articles supporting the contrary.
This is not to say you are not willing to read etc but you know what I
mean. Below are just a couple of links to some articles showing
scientific evidence for a young earth. I’m not saying you have to agree
with them, but at least know that my head is not buried in the sand
concerning science.
(
http://www.icr.org/article/young-age-for-moon-earth/)
(
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2005/06/01/evidence-for-young-world)
Me: 1.
I get it. You're trying to validate slavery because the Bible says it's
OK. But you know what? Many people in the South also felt the same way
depending upon their master. It's all they knew, and people were often
willing to accept their place in life, especially if it wasn't so bad.
Does that mean that what was going on there was right? No. Just because
people are happy with where they are doesn't mean that things should
change. Look up Stockholm syndrome. Should hostages stay hostages just
because they've become accustomed to it? Also, the gay community is not
happy with the situation you are trying to put them in, so this is no
comparison. I know the original idea was just that slavery is "OK"
because the slaves were "OK" with it, but it should also be taken in the
context of human rights from slavery to acceptance/tolerance of the gay
community. Imposing beliefs on other people that they wouldn't put on
themselves is not right -- you know, within reason where no one is
getting hurt.
I do not and will not ever agree that slavery of
any form is OK. You're using deluded logic to support the Bible, which,
in all fairness is outdated. If the Holy Book was written today it would
not have rules for slavery. The Bible is a product of its time.
2. "God says so" -- It's a means of not having to think for yourself.
Analytically break down the subject. For instance, instead of just
saying that homosexuality is "wrong" "because God says so", and you've
got it into your head that homosexuality is not only wrong because of
that, but to make it easier for you to understand this, you think that
it's a choice. How many gay people do you know? Have you ever asked them
how they knew they were gay and whether or not it's a choice? Also
think about this one. I brought it up when speaking with your mom, but I
didn't get an answer: WHY ON EARTH would gay people continue to be gay
with the discrimination that people such as yourself place on them? If
being gay is a choice, why would these people choose to be martyrs? Just
to be different? There's got to be something deeper to it. People have
DIED over their "choice" to be gay. It's not like being born African
American where there's no way to hide it, these people choose to be
themselves and you condemn them and some people in God's name have been
known to be generally violent or kill them, again, thinking that they're
justified in doing so. I know you're not the kind being violent nor
killing, but you still think that hatred is justified against these
people and that's almost just as bad. Does Jesus really say to hate
anyone? And even if he does, does he not say that you should leave the
judgement to him?
Morals: "So which one is right?". See, I am
justified in saying that it's an individual choice. But here's the
thing. I understand that Western law is based on Judeo-Christian
beliefs, and I'm not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing. For the
most part any religious beliefs worldwide were created to establish
order. There are a few that you see where human sacrifice was once
practiced (you see vestiges of that with Abraham and Isaac), but luckily
as time progresses people realize that not everything that is the
cultural norm is necessarily beneficial to the people. (This again also
pertains to slavery and basic human rights.)
So back to which
one is "right". That's the thing about morality, unless you believe that
it's black and white "God said so", then there's really nothing to go
off of since it's actually a bit of gray. This is why theocracies rule.
If you want everyone to live by standards that you think are worthy of
praise, then you impose them with the fear of the supernatural, the
unseen eye. There's a reason history doesn't tell of any sort of
religious-less cultures. To form a cohesive group, people need
uniformity to base their beliefs on. They need to know that there is
some common ground when they meet somebody in their "territory". Do you
think it's surprising that the pharaohs called themselves demi-gods?
Half-man, half-god. It's to put fear into the hearts of his subjects and
to take away any idea that he wasn't where he was supposed to be -- you
know, it's like justifying slavery on false pretenses...
So
all that I can ascribe to in my own life, since I don't believe in a
nebulous deity that is constantly judging me, is that I am nice to other
people and I do thinks that I think are not harmful to them or to their
well-being. This includes accepting people for who they are.
Homosexuality is not appealing to me in the slightest, especially
between men, but as long as I'm not being pushed into it, I have no
qualms with what people do with their own lives. I'm not going to judge.
And this doesn't even have to end with people. I think
animals, plants, all life deserve to live. I try to be as sympathetic as
possible unless anyone or anything attempts to harm myself, my
property, or people I care about -- and sometimes even people that I
don't particularly care for or know at all. You CAN have morals living a
Godless life. You live with them for yourself, not because you're
trying to please somebody, or because you'll be rewarded greatly in the
end. You do it because life is sacred no matter what form it comes in.
Because, seriously, if there's anything in the Bible that I subscribe
to, it's the Golden Rule. Do unto others... I don't wish to be harmed or
told what I can and can't do, so if it's not harming or imposing on
anybody else, then I should be able to do it.
I've yet to come
to a situation where without God's morals, that I haven't been able to
decide whether what I was doing was right or wrong. And I'm not saying
I'm a perfect person. I've done things that I've regretted and am not
happy about, but I have known during or shortly after that it wasn't
something that puts my character in the greatest light. But I can still
resolve to better myself in the future. You learn from your mistakes. I
make it right with the people I have harmed or upset, and I move on,
remembering that situation for future life experiences.
You
can use God's word as a blueprint for how you live your life, but just
remember that it was written in a time that is much different than ours.
Slavery was culturally acceptable back then. It is no longer today.
Racism, or at least cultural hatred was common in the Bible. Today,
well, we're working on it, but in theory our laws dictate that it
shouldn't be an issue. But you know what? That wasn't even the case when
this country came into existence. Why do you think there's so much
strife in this country today? People are leaning on documents that are
250 years old, from a time where cars, planes, computers, etc weren't
even concepts. And now you're trying to fit the law from their time into
what's relevant today?! In some instances it works, but with others,
you just can't do it and you have to proceed on your own.
Someday homosexuality will be respected, maybe only ephemerally in the
way that race is, but someday people will realize that it is not a
choice. And then they'll look back and wonder how people such as
yourself could have been so ignorant about the matter. It. is. not. a.
choice. Imagine what people do today when they look back at the KKK and
see how they used the Bible to justify hatred. That will be you. Jesus.
does. not. condone. hatred.
As for what authority do you have?
You have as much as me. We each have our own opinions and that's all we
can offer. It's why we don't change. If God really wanted me to be a
Christian, he could make it happen. You'll mention free will, which
oddly enough, in Mormonism, it's because Lucifer, Jesus' brother, didn't
want free will that there was the schism between the two. We're lucky
that Jesus won, right? (No, I am not Mormon, I just believe in learning
about other religions, you should try it.)
So with that said.
Who should have moral authority? I think that in a culture where we are
actually a mixture of cultures, that none shall reign supreme. You can
feel free to praise God in your churches, sing to him, show your joy,
Muslims and Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, can all do the same,
just as far as they're not telling anyone else how to live their lives.
Since we have so many cultures represented, Federal Law should not
impose one culture's religion over another. If that were the case, then
if Romney got into power, maybe he would start to lobby for support in
things that forced everyone to go on missions when they're 18, or
whatever concept you can think of. Maybe he'll reinstate polygamy... who
knows? It is not fair for your religion to dictate to millions of
unbelievers how they should live their lives. These people don't want to
tell you how to live, they just want to be left alone to live.
3. The article was just pointing to the formulation of this kind of
knowledge, which is why I relented and said that you didn't have to
believe it, but instead you should go out and talk to the gay community
to find out for yourself first hand.
Former homosexuals are
those who have been browbeaten into conforming. Or they could also be
bisexual (as sexuality is often a continuum) and they have settled for
the opposite genders. Are there really "reformed" gays that haven't been
pushed to become so either forcefully or by peer pressure?
I
have held things that are 12,000 years old. There is no way you are
going to convince me otherwise. Though, like you said, I'm not going to
be able to do the same for you.
http://flickr.com/gp/baggis/1356rr
But as for dinosaurs, I will concede that there is no solid evidence of
cohabitation with people, however, I do believe that dinosaurs evolved
into birds, and things like moa (which are now extinct) are vestiges of
this evolutionary process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moa
What I find interesting is that there is some evidence for this
evolution. Today's birds have bumps on their ulnae (lower arm) for
strong feather attachment to aid in flight. Velociraptors also have this
feature. You don't have to read the article, but at least look at the
picture.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/317/5845/1721.full.pdf
And really. I find it hard to believe that asking for simple tolerance
from a Christian is something I have to do. I'm not asking for you to
believe that the world is 4.5 billion years old, or that Neandertals are
a real thing, I just think that offering your fellow man a little
courtesy of life is not too much to ask for.
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