Tolerance

This is another conversation from Facebook where I felt like my addressing of issues were being called out by another person so I went to defend them. What started out as a few exchanges of words turned into a discussion with a person who couldn't compartmentalize the acceptance of ALL people. The mentality here is that you're either for or against Christianity. The concept that you are for acceptance, but against hate and discrimination toward anyone doesn't compute.

Putting them in that situation here makes them rage, but they still can't connect the two. If it's not them, it doesn't matter.

DZ: I've discovered something interesting about Facebook: if you're a liberal, you can post anything you want and everyone will like your posts. If you are a conservative and post what's on your heart and mind, everyone and their grandma will attack you and call you a bigot. Hmm... Now that's open-minded progressiveness.

TS: It's called the intolerance of intolerance. Back up your facts and I will respect you. 
 

AH: Facebook wars booooo :P I like you too much to say anything snarky if an opportunity presented itself. And you know I'm a raging heathen. ;)

CvT: Shut up BUD!

DZ: I'm just tired of hypocrites on both sides of the board. There are equal amounts of self-absorbed people on ends of the spectrum. I know many Conservatives put themselves in a bad light, and I loathe defending them, but for me, there's nothing worse than arrogant, self-righteous, so-called progressives, who are also extremely intolerant themselves. But hypocrites will be hypocrites and a douchebag by any other name would smell as foul.

 

DZ: AH, I know we differ on many things, but I was not thinking of you when I wrote this. You're a great person and truly my favorite heathen. :) CvT, I will do as you say, since I respect my elders (that and you give practical, helpful advice on a volleyball court).

TS: I figure this is directed at me. If not, sorry I wasted my breath. But understanding the definition of "bigotry" is important.

Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot", a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group. Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, including sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, race, ethnicity, nationality, region, language, religious or spiritual belief, political alignment, age, economic status or disability. Bigotry is sometimes developed into an ideology or world view." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

Not allowing gay marriage is intolerance aimed at a single group. Tonight Christians in North Carolina stood up and affirmed that they hate a select group of people. There's no other way to define it. I understand that you take offense with the blanket statement of "Christianity" being defined as intolerant, but if you look in the Bible there are several passages that condemn homosexuality with death.

There are Christians, and I understand this, who look beyond this and see that people should actually love and accept anyone for whoever they are. These people I applaud. But Christianity is far too often used under the first amendment as a viable means to hate people. This I despise. However, I appreciate that you are not one of these people and I am sorry that I offended you. I should have been more explicit and labeled it as "Fundamental Christianity", since this is actually the major offender and what is today holding back the conservative right.

AH: Oh I know you weren't, I was just sayin. ;) 

TS: Close-mindedness would be me telling you that you can't be a Christian, just like some Christians are telling homosexuals that they basically shouldn't exist or "don't count". THAT is intolerance. Their existence and ability to get married in no way affects anybody who does not want to live that lifestyle. Live and let live. 

DZ: TS, my post wasn't directed at you either. I should have specified. I understand your issues with right wing hypocrites. I posted my post after someone on Facebook said that "all Christians are intolerant assholes." Well, I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that's like saying "all car sales people are sleazy dirt-bags." Generalizing is never good.

TS: Both are perceived stereotypes that people who do not fit that mold need to prove wrong.

DZ: Man, is this ever a hot button topic! But open dialogue is good. Too often people aren't willing to listen to opposing views and that hinders understanding. I myself don't hate anyone. I actually try my hardest to get along with people, to serve others and show the quality of my character through action, instead of talking about it non-stop. That is why I work where I work, because it is so rewarding to help change lives. We definitely live in a broken world, and I'd rather see it fixed then continue to live amongst the debris.

TS: You may not hate, but the 61%/39% vote in North Carolina (in which I was a recent resident) shows that people do. You are lucky to live in a environment which is mostly tolerant. Living in the South is much, much different. There are things you are faced with there that I didn't even know existed anymore. It may happen in the PNW, but I don't think it's as prevalent.

With that said, I also do my work for the benefit of others. I have former coworkers who live in Anchorage and North Carolina whose lives are currently being affected by the recent legislation that has been to the detriment of the homosexual community. I don't blame you for being frustrated/tired about people going on and on about it, however, I find myself faced with this very real issue in two of the three places that I've called "home". I choose to speak out about it. I choose to educate and promote dialogue. 

ML: Not just Facebook. The internet. I'm a liberal and I hate that we are represented by a bunch of people just looking for a fight.

ES: DZ, its the area you live in. I am with you though dude.

BP: Meh... I think it goes both ways. I've seen liberals called socialists for their opinions and conservatives called fascists for theirs. People have a tough time hearing someone elses' point of view.

JB: DZ, i just want to point out and defend 'douchebags'. You said they smell bad by any other name, but technically they are a key part in a cleansing process, thus most likely aid in a garden fresh scent reminiscint of a fine evening, in the summer perhaps. Im just saying ;)

DZ: JB... That was poignant and thoughtful. Thanks for making me laugh buddy.

TS: Actually douchebags are detrimental to women's health and it is highly advised that they not be used. Inform yourself before making analogies. That's the whole point of this. Today's society believes that ignorance is a view point. Where it is, it's only going to end up at the detriment of the people. For example, the North Carolina vote on gay marriage not on hurts same-sex partners, but now anyone who is not in a legal marriage, meaning a civil union. This means that children who previously had health care are no longer going to be covered because of the hate and bigotry associated with homosexuality.

Coming on facebook and saying "facebook discussions are dumb" is just promoting that ignorance. You can have opinions, but nobody can dispute facts. http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/douching.cfm#d

Is douching safe? - Douching fact sheet | womenshealth.gov

ML: ‎"Since a douchebag is a sanitary product, I will take that as a compliment." - Nerdy kid, Wet Hot American Summer

TS: And then they realized: lysol + vaginas = cervical cancer  

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbill/37804458/

Lysol Ad #5

‎"Why does she spend the evenings alone?"

JK: So explain why it is "hateful" to vote on something such as the right to marriage. They are voting which is their right. You are stating that ALL of those folks in North Carolina are therefore "hating"? THAT is bigotry, in my opinion. You can say you disagree, but to call them ignorant or hateful or any other derogatory term is more hateful than what they are doing. If you think people that are in a gay relationship should have the right to marriage, then vote your mind, and leave it to the democratic process. I think abortion is wrong but I don't call those who don't douche bags and such.

TS: OK. Say you want to get married. Say I don't like your lifestyle and I make it a law that JK cannot marry. How is imposing law that has NOTHING to do with myself and EVERYTHING to do with you, who I'm pretty sure I don't know, mean that I'm not explicitly hating on you? I'm making choices for your life that you find unfair. These choices have no affect on me, I just don't like you. I think you represent everything that's evil in this country.

And you're not listening. Ignorance is people voting for this law, which contrary to the understanding of the amendment, in my ridiculous scenario here and correlating to the NC vote, would actually means that in my voting for it that all TSs would lose health care, simply because I didn't bother to inform myself about the amendment. I'm shooting myself in the foot just because I have this ominous distaste for JKs. THAT is ignorance and really, sheer stupidity. Harming yourself in spite of somebody else...

I don't think that basic civil rights are something that people should need to vote on. The mentality you're describing was once the majority with respect to race and gender. The majority once thought that black people were not worthy of living without a master, and that women should not be allowed to vote. These are basic rights. These took years to overcome because of people who don't realize that everyone else deserves a basic level of respect. That is intolerance, and to me, that is hate. That is bigotry. My insistence in that people respect other people is not me hating. That is me being frustrated with the hate that other people harbor.

I didn't bring douchebags into this conversation. There's a big difference between labeling someone as a douchebag and a bigot. I defined bigotry above. Read it and tell me how this doesn't apply to this situation here.

JK: Your meaning of hate is different than what DZ and I have experienced. I was called a "Homophobe" by a mutual liberal acquaintance the first time they met me and found out I was a Christian. I have the right to marry so you would have to rewrite the law to enforce your opinion. What is your reasoning? In your scenario, if that is all the reasoning behind the law then I would agree with you that such a vote would be hateful. However, you cannot speak for everyone who voted! You cannot lump them all into the same boat - THAT is what DZ and I are arguing against! THAT is wrong! It is not American! There are numerous reasons to vote against gay-marriage. Just so you know, I would be fine with same sex relationships having the same legal rights as they would if they were married. The thing that I don't agree with is calling what they have a marriage. Marriage is derived from the Bible and that is one man for one woman - PERIOD. That is what it says and that is why I defend such a definition. Does that make me hateful for such a stance? It has nothing to do with "liking" a person or thinking they are "evil" or whatever you want to try to paint. I am for what is best for America and causing polarization is NOT what is best. Eventually, it will lead to either: A) a complete collapse of this country or B) anther civil war.

JK: Like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principals. Such state that you are created equal and gives you the right to your opinion. But biting the hand that feeds you is the worst kind of hate. It is not a smart thing to do. You cannot have it both ways.

TS: Why is it that the Bible gets to dictate the definition of marriage? I thought we had a government that believed in the separation of church and state. Let's say, for instance, that Obama was a Muslim. Would you be OK with him saying that the definition of "High Holidays" is now Ramadan? Oh, wait, now you're telling me that you don't like it when somebody else tells you that what you feel is wrong is right? Sorry, it's now a law, the people have spoken. Maybe now that you're forced to pray toward Mecca you're wondering about how imposing laws on people who are different than you might not be the best suggestion you've ever made. This tradition though, is founded on religion, so it must be true. At least that's what we tell ourselves with Christianity. It has supernatural backing... And if you use supernatural backing to formulate laws, people who are not under that ideology get screwed. Why not just allow people to live their lives in happiness ESPECIALLY when it doesn't affect anyone else's lives.

You're talking polarization? You're saying that people can't do what they want to do, and I'm the one who is creating polarization. Think about that for a minute. Say you're playing basketball. I am team captain, and oh, I forgot to mention I don't like JK. My best friend is the other team captain and has my back. We choose teams and leave JK out. Sorry. You can't play. Those are the rules. My ball. Suck it, JK.

JK: Wow - now YOU are not reading everything! This country was founded on the Bible! IF you don't like it then leave.

TS: Actually. It wasn't.

JK: Well, since I am bigger than you and stronger and tougher, I would make the rules! Is that what you want? Is might right? That is where you are heading. If it is not God who decides then it is whoever has power - be it the rich or the strong.

TS: What? You don't like being left out? You only like it when you're part of the cool crowd? You don't like being marginalized? Hm. Imagine that.

TS: No. I think fairness involves everyone. I think if I had some compassion, and even though JK isn't my favorite person, I would still allow him to play because I know he would enjoy being included. That is what I'm saying. You're the one who is bullying. That scenario with basketball is what you're doing to people. See what you resort to? Violence.

JK: So now you are rewriting history! So what is your answer, Mr know-it-all? You tell me what needs to be done for peace - you tell me what needs to be done for us to coexist! All you are doing is causing angst. Great job!

TS: Acceptance, compassion, understanding, and most importantly education.

I know. I'm causing you angst because I'm mentally putting you in the position that you put these people in by not accepting them.

JK: Violence is NOT what i am resorting to otherwise I would ask that you and I have a little pow-wow to discuss this in person, dude ;-)‎

TS: "JK: Well, since I am bigger than you and stronger and tougher, I would make the rules!"

TS: If not violence then intimidation. 

JK: These people? I accept everyone but that doesn't mean I allow them to do whatever they want. There are millions of people who want to steal, kill, destroy, rape, be pedophiles, etc, so I am hating on them too? 

TS: Here again is the difference. What these people want hurts no one. All those things in your list does.

JK: I was just going to what you are leading to. If God doesn't decide then might is right. That is what we had before America. That is what a dictatorship is, or having a king or a communistic country. They use violence! There are estimates that say that there are over 100 million Christians in China who are imprisoned for their beliefs. Yet somehow you cry FOUL over people in NC using their right to vote but not on those who are REALLY suffering! What about those in Darfur or Nigeria or Indonesia who are being raped, pillaged and killed for their beliefs?

TS: This is not China. If this were China I would be outraged. Just as if Obama imposed Muslim rule or if I was forced to believe in Christianity. People in NC who are same-sex couples now have no right to joint insurance, cannot visit each other in the hospital because they are not related, they don't have any rights over property of the other person if there is no will enacted and one was to die. Yes. They do suffer because of the hatred of others.

I detest anyone who is being harmed because of their beliefs. How would you be harmed if you allowed homosexuals to get married?

   
JK: Just don't call it marriage - such people can have all the aforementioned rights! Can you not compromise?

TS: I'm sure many people would be fine with that. I can't speak for the LGBT community in that respect, but I'm sure many of them would be fine with that kind of arrangement.

JK: I am trying to work this out, and I apologize for my passion in this endeavor - but I do want unity; I do want peace, bro!

TS: Then allow for acceptance. You don't have to like it, but you should tolerate it.

JK: I guess we would need to define acceptance. ;-) If I can accept without denying what I believe to be true: that homosexuality is very problematic and not what is best for those involved, then fine. But from what i have heard, the LGBT community wants everyone to say that they are perfectly right and that the Bible is wrong. Not only that, many seem to want all Christianity to be abolished. That i cannot say is good, but whether I like it or not, I know that many will come to that viewpoint and I may have to die for my faith. Do I want to have to suffer and die? Not really. But if that is what happens, then so be it. 

 

TS: I think just many don't want to have to associate with the church because of their intolerance. Do you tell Muslims what they can and can't do? It says in the Bible that they're of the "wrong" faith. Impose laws on them that restrict their rights as human beings.

I think you're wrong in your assertion that they want to destroy Christianity. I think they just want Christians to leave them alone. Christianity is the one badgering them when they're just trying to live a peaceful lifestyle. Wasn't that you that was talking about the ills of making blanket statements?

I'm fairly confident you're not going to die for your faith in this country. Quit being so melodramatic.

JK: I'm fairly confident you're not going to die for your faith in this country. Quit being so melodramatic. - that is not conducive for this, dude. And I have heard from many who say that they want to abolish Christianity! YOU cannot tell me what I have or have not experienced! Now you are just being argumentative; unwilling to work things out. Again, you are acting like mr-know-it-all and I don't like such attitudes so touche!

TS: Fine. You've heard it. I've also heard Christians say "all fags should burn". But in both instances I think those are fringe subpopulations of a larger entity. How is that being unwilling to work things out? Oh, right. I forgot that "people hate the smartest man in the room" -- Sarah Palin.

Here is where JK decided to block me. I don't know if blocking me removes all comments visible to me or if he took the time to remove them. But I followed up with the only peace offering I could think of.

TS: I'm not completely sure, but I think blocking me and deleting all comments is not working things out....

Sorry, DZ. You can choose to do the same to me if you'd like. I just think that whether or not Christianity is true is irrelevant. It still shouldn't be able to dictate how people choose to peacefully live their lives. And I think that's a worth cause for discussion.