Religion vs. Science: Part 1
This is going to be the first of two long posts. I have a friend who posted something on facebook that spawned quite the argument between me and his dad. We later took it underground to messages, but I'll start off with the original post, then what can be seen on facebook. The second post will be what happened in the messages. All names involved will only be represented with the first letter of their name. I'll try to keep it consistent in the comments where names are used. In case you don't know, I am T.:
J
Sometimes this guy nails it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/38731398#38731398
R
After listening, my opinion of this liar and socialist does not change. He lies. And focuses attention away from the truth and the issues. What does a Catholic church have to do with the discussion??? People in the name of Catholicism didn't murder our citizens.
Besides! This isn't about religion. That is all a deflection he talks about. And even Muslims that understand, disagree with the location of any Islamic gathering place around ground zero.
The concern of most educated people is who is funding it and why. All the rest is deflection. Follow the money. They guy that heads it up refuses to divulge who is paying the bill. Wanna bet who it is?
Sorry this guy NEVER nails anything in my opinion. He's a liar and a socialist.
R Oh, and about the Jacksonville bombing. I don't believe they caught anyone. How would this guy use such an example when he doesn't even know who did it? He only ass-u-me-s
T
I wonder when people will start to realize how socialist our military is. J, this might make you one twice over.
And as for Cordoba, if you go there today you will realize that what was once a mosque has since been taken over and a Catholic cathedral has been erected RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of it. Today when you visit you are not asked to remove your shoes in the custom of the Muslim, rather you are asked to remove your had in respect of the Christian God. But I guess that's a moot point now that the name's changed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/baggis/1141590646/
And how is this not about religion or a question of religious funding? Olberman may have a way of making his points seem more valid, but since when has upholding the Constitution been so contentious with the Right?
K
I like what this guy has to say: http://www.scottberkun.com/blog/2010/ground-zero-and-the-mosque/
And, as soon as the government starts telling one private organization they can't build on private land, what's going to stop them from telling any other private organization the same thing?
T
Another left-wing take: I can't believe the last 20 seconds. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/stewart-takes-on-ground-z_n_678224.html
R
follow the money. we are at war with radical people that want to kill Americans in mass. is this being funded by those people?constitution demands protection
T
I suppose the next step would be to deny Muslims the right to bear arms, even if they're American.
T
Just go down the list.
R the only constitutional issue here is protection of american lives during a time of war .the unanswered question is who is funding this ?
K Seriously?
Wow.
J
R, I'd like you to reconsider that last position. Every Soldier upon entry to the Armed Services swears to protect the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. That is an oath I took with the utmost seriousness and the true weight and meaning I'm still trying to grasp. During a time of war is when the Constitution is most in danger, not from outside, but from inside. If we are willing to give up on our principles then we have lost more than anyone can ever take from us. If we give up on these enshrined freedoms, if we make exceptions and exclusions for these rights we declare to defend, then everything we have gained is for naught and bit by bit we lose what is truly the soul of America.
As to your question, funding is researched by an office under the Federal Reserve. I can't remember the name of the office (its rather long and pretentious sounding), but they are the ones responsible for freezing the assets of anyone linked to funding terrorism. And I highly doubt that their are any ties to terrorism that wouldn't be brought to light if there are in fact any. Even if there were, it'd probably be classified so we'll likely never know.
I imagine that he's not saying who's funding it simply because there's no answer that will not bring about more controversy. Even if it was the Dali Lama there would be some political pundit saying, "the Dali Lama is a terrorist."
I have to ask, if the placement of a Muslim community center is not being objected to on the basis of its religion, then what is the objection?
J
K, Mr. Scott Berkun is asking a question that I too have wondered. But I don't think that there will be any legal basis for disallowing it that could be upheld in court. They certainly would be stupid to squeeze legislation in somewhere as it would create *such* a backlash especially with local elections coming up.
I do have to mention that your last comment could be construed as rude, so I'll have to ask you to be careful with your tone seeing as how the internet always suffers from a severe lack of one. :/
J
T, Seriously, I get meals, housing, health insurance, health care, dental work, clothing, a bed, a mandatory health regimen (complete with fitness centers and stadium), and a salary all on the tax payer's bill. That said it's still a better option than privately contracting it out and it's cheaper, too. Can you imagine trying to go to war with a privatized army? Option #1: Nuke it, like I'm going to go in there and get shot? I'm a sub-contractor I don't have health insurance! Option #2: Indiscriminate bombing, see justification for #1.
Speaking of buildings that have changed hands over the years, I'd love to see the Hagi Sophia.
Oh and I checked that 9/11 Koran burning happening in Gainesville Florida by the Dove World Outreach Center. For a sec I thought that was fake news, but no it's legit.
B
R, if you really believe your last post, then review this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment . What this guy is trying to point out is this same issue with the Japanese cropping up all over again. We are treating innocent people with ridiculous hostility simply because we are afraid and angry. While yes, it would be a concern if this was in fact a terrorist training ground, I really doubt that it is. Regardless, you are missing the deeper point that this guy is trying to make and that is not all Muslims are evil and we should give our fellow Americans the benefit of the doubt.
R
Wow! I cannot believe my too sons (J&B)do not know me. I'm one of the most conservative kids from Texas of 10 children in a Catholic family. You think I don't love the Constitution and love this country for what all those before me gave their lives to protect for me and my family? Really?
The point, again, what for the umtenth time. All this religious deflection is not pointing to the real concern. Who is funding this? If it is just innocent Muslims that "just want to get along", then that is wonderful. but the point is that no ones knows at this point. If it is funded by those that destroyed NY on 9/11 and that want to murder every one of us, then we have a serious problem and I see all on this thread agree. That was my only point. It was not to trash the Constitution. Obama is doing that quite nicely by himself.
I agree that the backlash against Muslims and Islam is fanatic, but the problem has fueled by their lack of action I think. Where are the organized Muslims that are fighting to get their religion back from the radicals? Why are they so invisible and silent? Where is their public outcry and organization to support keeping Americans safe? I did a quick google search and find a few web sites that indeed state this, but why are they not more public? That seems odd. If I were them I'd have a publicity team fighting back against the bad perceptions the bad apples, i.e. terrorist in the name of Islam, give them.
I pray for your generation, as in mine and before, we understood our enemy better. Starting after WWII though, communist and socialist learned that they had to learn more about using American freedoms to take over our country. I see this happening more and more every day. It is a fine line to give rights to terroists that want to kill every one of us. How do you define that line?
One big concern that people have against Muslims is that their fundamental religion of Islam is a direct contradiction in American laws in so many ways, i.e. Sharia law. It will be hard for your generation to protect human life and dignity according to our Constitution and not violate their religion. Quite difficult. Hope y'all figure this one out some day, as soon Sharia law will take precedent over our laws. Already I heard this week on the radio that a judge found a man innocent of repeated rape and abuse to his wife (yes she said no), because he cried "religions freedom". I pray for all those women that suffer at the hands of a bastardized religion that abuses human life.
R
by the way, K, I didn't take offense. Was actually quite perplexed by your comment / question. But knowing you all misinterpreted what I said, it's understandable.
R
...oh J.....Olberman is still a JERK! He is a liar at every turn and just one of the biggest progressive socialist you'll find with a microphone and camera. That is why he can only get a job on NBC. he is one of the guys that understands how to manipulate our Constitution for the gain of the socialist progressive party (i.e. Communist) agenda. Look into him more and what he does and says. He is ignorant and an idiot. Here is an example of his stupidity and rudeness and why he should be thrown off the TV, especially for saying GD on TV and NBC even airing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9LviuJsIU&feature=player_embedded
T
"Where are the organized Muslims that are fighting to get their religion back from the radicals? Why are they so invisible and silent?"
Do you think that any sort of action will be taken in good light. And just the same with Christianity, is there really a fight to put down the power behind the Tea Party movement? I'm sure the Muslim people just want to live their lives just as anyone else does.
My question is, what happens when the shoe's on the other foot. Say atheists become the dominant culture and Christianity becomes threatened. Are you going to still have the same mentality where the majority should bully the minority rather than trying to coexist and allow for peaceful activities? Just because one sect is seemingly more dangerous than another? And if you think Christianity isn't dangerous, I refer you to pretty much every war in the West since the Crusades.
And I think if you want to define "the line", the best way is to educate the people on the multiculturalism and that most Muslims have foundations that very much mirror that of Christians. A large portion of the Quran tells the same story as the Bible's Old Testament, just from a different narrative viewpoint. I'm pretty sure that allowing religious freedom will not result in Sharia law.
R
Tea Party movement to oust corrupt and socialist politicians are now brought into this conversation of radical killing Muslims that want to destroy us in the name of Islam? Not seeing the connection at all now. And what does a political party have to do with this religious rights discussion? Odd comparison.
R
Maybe folks that don't want to fight for American laws should just leave and go to Australia. Oh, no, forgot.... The sick people that site their Islamic law are killing people there too. he says in this interview, "there are two laws...there is an Islamic Law." There are not two laws in civilized society. Can Sharia law even coexist with a civilized democracy or republic? Therein lies the real problem.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ce7_1254826200
R
"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." "Women are your fields. Go, then, into your fields as you please" (Sura 2, v. 223).
http://politics.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/04/07/no-god-but-god.html
T
Tea Partiers do not want to pay taxes, and people such as Joe Miller, who is running for senator in Alaska, wants to abolish everything that was not originally in the constitution. For him, this means no education system. In a debate, Lisa Murkowski rebutted by asking him about the Air Force -- no response. This is non-nonsensical. Capitalism does not look out for the average person. These people are being duped by those who should be paying more taxes.
And religion and politics are so intrinsically tied that it's hard to find boundaries. Muslim fundamentalists are seeking to uphold their morals, Tea Partiers are backed by Fundamentalist Christianity ideas. The US tries to separate church and state, but really one ideology fuels the other. Our laws are based on our morals, our morals are grounded in our faith. Atheists may not claim to believe in a God, but being reared in a God-fearing country they are surrounded by the Christian culture and are still highly influenced by it.
T
And I am fighting for American laws. I'm fighting for the First Amendment, but all you Muslimphobes don't seem to think that these people should fit into the same equation as "Real Americans". Everyone here is an immigrant of some sort and our culture has morphed to fit the influx of all these varying cultures. And as you may have learned, no religion founded this country. Christianity was thrust into the political scene after the founding fathers set things up. It was a movement in the 30s and later that added "In God we trust".
And I'm not promoting a second set of laws and I'm not really sure who is. I really just thought that you'd be appalled by Sharia law because it promotes taxes and free trade.
T
OK, do you really want me to pull some crap out of the Bible that says some equally antiquated misogynistic dribble? It's there. We're dealing with laws that are thousands of years old. There is going to be stuff in there that no longer applies to our current culture. This is why culture evolves and so should the laws and morals governing it.
R
"Capitalism does not look out for the average person." Exposed! That says it all. The End.
T
Clearly. Even with as corrupt as it is, the government has checks and balances to help people out. Capitalism would run amok without it. Glad we see eye-to-eye on something.
R
uhhhh..... NOT! I am not a socialist. I believe in true freedom of free enterprise. Nor do I believe our government was created to "look after" the citizens. The Constitution was written to protect the citizens of this country FROM the government. It was not written to enable the government to control our lives or the economy or any one sector of the economy like cars, insurance, banks, our health, etc, as recent corrupt politicians have perverted our laws. It seems some want to pick out what they like about our Bill of Rights and our Constitution and trash the rest in the name of helping our fellow man. How about people just helping our fellow man without being so lazy and expecting government to do it for them? Where does it say in the Constitution or any founding documents that our government is to protect its citizens from stupid or corrupt business deals? I just don't remember ever seeing that.
T
So regulation has no place, like, say with BP's deep-sea drilling escapade? Who is going to make BP pay for the devastation they've caused? BP? Unlikely.
"It seems some want to pick out what they like about our Bill of Rights and our Constitution and trash the rest."
I find this funny as, going back to our "mosque" scenario, you're basically disregarding the First Amendment as a means to solve what you see as a problem.
Ya know. I too have a distaste for those who are lazy and don't strive to help themselves. However, if we're talking about working the system, it's not only those at the bottom, those at the top do as well. I suppose that's your point in fingering all those dirty politicians, but I've once heard that "absolute power corrupts absolutely". You can get in fresh blood, but it's always going to be somebody grabbing for the bigger piece of the pie. Government, as faulty as it is, is our best mechanism for balancing the inevitable.
R
Show me the "devastation" BP caused. Really! Oil is a natural substance and is biodegradable. The environmentalist don't point this out, as they are against "big oil" i.e. capitalism (oooooo! there's that bad word!) and they don't want to confuse people with environmental facts that go against their socialist "government protection of the people" agenda. The only real devastation, that I witnessed personally in my regular travels to that region, was the loss of tourism as a result of the over exaggerated media stories of oil on the beach.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bp-oil-spill-crude-mother-nature-breaks-slick/story?id=11254252
Back to religious freedom topic of this thread, I've never disagreed with the Bill of Rights. Let's get it straight by looking at the exact word, which are brief in fact.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
No one has suggested that the government in NY should make laws that "prohibit the free exercise" of Muslims practicing their religion. The Bill of Rights does not guarantee that any religion can put up any building anywhere they wish either. Let's say a church was to buy up houses in a neighborhood and decide to tear them all down and build a church right in the middle of the other houses. According to some, they should have the right from the Bill of Rights to do so. Just not true. Zoning and local customs dictate what buildings are appropriate for specific places.
Besides, my point has always been that this is about the funding and the money, but most refuse to hear this. This Inam or Iman ..whatever.. and this "congregation" used to be poor. Where did this money come from and what was the motivation of those who gave it to him? If it came from the same radicals that blew up NY, then yes we should all be concerned. I'm tired of typing the same thing over and over. I'm done. It's time for people to wake up and find the truth, instead of arguing the Bill of Rights which all Americans agree with!
T
Oil is biodegradable, as is pretty much everything given enough time, HOWEVER, how long are you willing to give for these substances to "disappear"? Living in Alaska you still hear stories of people digging less than a foot into the shores of Prince William Sound and finding a layer of oil. It may be hidden, but it's not gone. And that was from more than 20 years ago. You must be willing to allot more than a generation for this "harmless" biodegradable product.
So if there's a pre-existing community center that's been there since the 70s, then what's the big deal? Seems like it's already zoned for it. This is just an argument that's trying to back the sentiments of people's hatred for the religion but it doesn't quite work. But tell me, how to "local customs" come into this? Especially since that area is riddled with cultural diversity seen from here to the heart of Mesopotamia.
Do we even know who these "radicals" are that blew up the NY WTC? That might make the connection difficult to trace.
We have very differing versions of the First Amendment. Yours fits the viewpoint of the insular, fearful American, mine is the view that every citizen, regardless of ethnicity or creed should have the ability and right to do what is listed under that amendment.
And coming from your POV, why does it really matter where the money comes from? In a capitalist society this shouldn't be of anyone's concern. Whoever has the most money wins. All other rules are negligible and/or subject to being bought and changed by the highest bidder.
Oh, but you have a distaste for outsiders who have money? Well, without a government sticking its nose into your economic life and creating its socialist policies, it's going to be hard to keep these powerful people out of your country's affairs and pockets. Especially after the hole that past politicians have put us in trying to bring democracy to those who are now playing the capitalist game.
R
Well, heat does indeed stimulate biodegradability of any carbon based product or organism, like a human body slowly decaying on the cool beach of Alaska from the frigid waters of the northern Pacific versus disappearing quickly in the heat of the 95 degree plus Gulf of Mexico beach. It is a proven fact, and is not arguable to intelligent educated people. Half life of crude is only a couple months. Full biodegredation at 20 C can be in less than a year.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25044389
On the mosque, it would be best to get the facts straight. NO one has argued that the existing structure and congregation should leave. Thus to answer, there is "no big deal" with a "pre-existing community center...since the 70s". Indeed it is already zoned. It is not about hatred; that is what socialist say against people that debate them when they know they cannot win a debate on facts. The concern is that they should not be building a building that looks like a monument.
http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/replicate/EXID46407/images/amd_wtc_concept%281%29.jpg
Comments posted here reveal that the writer does not even know that this 70's building is proposed to be torn down and rebuilt with an influx of funds from unknown sources to stand up and be a monument to stick out for the radical Muslims to show as a win for their perverted inhuman and lawless causes. This has been done all over the world in other similar devastated and attacked places over history.
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1496/mosques-on-sacred-sites-of-defeated-enemies
Outsiders who have money? Really. Most of our country is owned by "outsiders". That is what happens in a capitalist system, save the areas protected for national security reasons. No, its simply about making sure that people that want to kill YOU do not have a place to call theirs in your neighborhood, and in this case it is NY; and that we not allow the wrong message to be sent to those enemies.
T
.01 to 1g seems pretty small compared to the massive amounts of oil released in the Gulf. And the ocean may be much cooler up here, but you compared the water temp of Alaska to the air temperature of the Gulf. The Gulf only gets to about 80-85F, which granted, is more than Prince William Sound's 55F, but it's not quite the spread that you tried to make it out to be.
From your link: "This analysis suggests that crude oil biodegradation in seawater is relatively slow and indicates that further research is required to bridge the gap between laboratory and field systems."
I'd also say that this study isn't very conclusive.
"Indeed [the community center] is already zoned." Then why did you bring that up in the discussion? Red herring perhaps? But I like that you have now adapted your argument. And this is the first time I've heard about the monument-esque building, so thanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51
"Plans to build Cordoba House were noted in December 2009, at a location that was already in use for Muslim worship. The plans were reviewed by the local community board in May 2010, at which time they attracted some national media attention. The project's organizers state that it is intended to be "a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America, and globally," and have stated that it is modeled on the noted Manhattan Jewish community and cultural center, the 92nd Street Y. The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews."
These causes seem like very "perverted inhuman [sic] and lawless". No fear or hatred here.
And I guess my next question should be, what is defined as "the areas protected for national security reasons"? The WTC is already gone. Will the site really be struck again? I can see how this might be misconstrued as a jab at Americans over what happened, but not our security.
Really, the best way to fight is with education and tolerance, not discrimination. If money is coming in and stimulating the economy how can a capitalist be angry? Because their fear and mistrust outshines it. But that's the name of the capitalist game: Watch your back or get it stabbed. None of this community-minded bullshit, well, unless you're one of our own.
R
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshxx."
T
Education = bullshit. I'll remember that one.
R
"If it's on the internet, it has to be true!"
Real NY Mosque Plan Revealed, from NY Mediaworks:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100822123107/uncyclopedia/images/f/fc/G0M.jpg
How about this source of "education"? It has the same join and add whatever you like policy as wikipedia.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
As one gets older one learns to more easily discern real education from propaganda.
T
You have to believe something...
What I will say is that you should see what sex education (or lack thereof) has done for Bristol Palin. If you enrich someone with the knowledge of something that is normally foreign to them, they'll learn that it's not something to be feared. And they will learn what to expect and will be familiar with the topic. "There's nothing to fear but fear itself."
Much of the Qur'an mirrors the Bible but seemingly no one knows this because propaganda only tells them what they should think about the subject. Looking at what's really behind the pages might open up one's eyes and show that Muslims aren't "inhuman and lawless". We're creating a war zone out of our own fears.
R
Oh yeah man.... men gotta love Islam and their book of rules.
"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." "Women are your fields. Go, then, into your fields as you please" (Sura 2, v. 223).
http://politics.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/04/07/no-god-but-god.html?PageNr=3
T
Ephesians 5:22-24 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
R
OMG! Seriously? Christians are not on record using this to justify raping and abusing their wives, as Muslims have already been acquitted in courts in the US by using their religion to justify such. Let's stay real.
T
I'm just showing the similarities, I'm not saying they're justified. However, Christians used to be on the record as owning human beings and disallowing certain freedoms to certain people. Do we really want to digress back to that?
And this is what I could find with a quick google search: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/sharia-in-new-jersey-muslim-husband-rapes-wife-judge-sees-no-sexual-assault-because-husbands-religio.html
Looks as though the appellate court reversed the decision.
J
Sometimes this guy nails it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/38731398#38731398
R
After listening, my opinion of this liar and socialist does not change. He lies. And focuses attention away from the truth and the issues. What does a Catholic church have to do with the discussion??? People in the name of Catholicism didn't murder our citizens.
Besides! This isn't about religion. That is all a deflection he talks about. And even Muslims that understand, disagree with the location of any Islamic gathering place around ground zero.
The concern of most educated people is who is funding it and why. All the rest is deflection. Follow the money. They guy that heads it up refuses to divulge who is paying the bill. Wanna bet who it is?
Sorry this guy NEVER nails anything in my opinion. He's a liar and a socialist.
R Oh, and about the Jacksonville bombing. I don't believe they caught anyone. How would this guy use such an example when he doesn't even know who did it? He only ass-u-me-s
T
I wonder when people will start to realize how socialist our military is. J, this might make you one twice over.
And as for Cordoba, if you go there today you will realize that what was once a mosque has since been taken over and a Catholic cathedral has been erected RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of it. Today when you visit you are not asked to remove your shoes in the custom of the Muslim, rather you are asked to remove your had in respect of the Christian God. But I guess that's a moot point now that the name's changed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/baggis/1141590646/
And how is this not about religion or a question of religious funding? Olberman may have a way of making his points seem more valid, but since when has upholding the Constitution been so contentious with the Right?
K
I like what this guy has to say: http://www.scottberkun.com/blog/2010/ground-zero-and-the-mosque/
And, as soon as the government starts telling one private organization they can't build on private land, what's going to stop them from telling any other private organization the same thing?
T
Another left-wing take: I can't believe the last 20 seconds. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/stewart-takes-on-ground-z_n_678224.html
R
follow the money. we are at war with radical people that want to kill Americans in mass. is this being funded by those people?constitution demands protection
T
I suppose the next step would be to deny Muslims the right to bear arms, even if they're American.
T
Just go down the list.
R the only constitutional issue here is protection of american lives during a time of war .the unanswered question is who is funding this ?
K Seriously?
Wow.
J
R, I'd like you to reconsider that last position. Every Soldier upon entry to the Armed Services swears to protect the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. That is an oath I took with the utmost seriousness and the true weight and meaning I'm still trying to grasp. During a time of war is when the Constitution is most in danger, not from outside, but from inside. If we are willing to give up on our principles then we have lost more than anyone can ever take from us. If we give up on these enshrined freedoms, if we make exceptions and exclusions for these rights we declare to defend, then everything we have gained is for naught and bit by bit we lose what is truly the soul of America.
As to your question, funding is researched by an office under the Federal Reserve. I can't remember the name of the office (its rather long and pretentious sounding), but they are the ones responsible for freezing the assets of anyone linked to funding terrorism. And I highly doubt that their are any ties to terrorism that wouldn't be brought to light if there are in fact any. Even if there were, it'd probably be classified so we'll likely never know.
I imagine that he's not saying who's funding it simply because there's no answer that will not bring about more controversy. Even if it was the Dali Lama there would be some political pundit saying, "the Dali Lama is a terrorist."
I have to ask, if the placement of a Muslim community center is not being objected to on the basis of its religion, then what is the objection?
J
K, Mr. Scott Berkun is asking a question that I too have wondered. But I don't think that there will be any legal basis for disallowing it that could be upheld in court. They certainly would be stupid to squeeze legislation in somewhere as it would create *such* a backlash especially with local elections coming up.
I do have to mention that your last comment could be construed as rude, so I'll have to ask you to be careful with your tone seeing as how the internet always suffers from a severe lack of one. :/
J
T, Seriously, I get meals, housing, health insurance, health care, dental work, clothing, a bed, a mandatory health regimen (complete with fitness centers and stadium), and a salary all on the tax payer's bill. That said it's still a better option than privately contracting it out and it's cheaper, too. Can you imagine trying to go to war with a privatized army? Option #1: Nuke it, like I'm going to go in there and get shot? I'm a sub-contractor I don't have health insurance! Option #2: Indiscriminate bombing, see justification for #1.
Speaking of buildings that have changed hands over the years, I'd love to see the Hagi Sophia.
Oh and I checked that 9/11 Koran burning happening in Gainesville Florida by the Dove World Outreach Center. For a sec I thought that was fake news, but no it's legit.
B
R, if you really believe your last post, then review this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment . What this guy is trying to point out is this same issue with the Japanese cropping up all over again. We are treating innocent people with ridiculous hostility simply because we are afraid and angry. While yes, it would be a concern if this was in fact a terrorist training ground, I really doubt that it is. Regardless, you are missing the deeper point that this guy is trying to make and that is not all Muslims are evil and we should give our fellow Americans the benefit of the doubt.
R
Wow! I cannot believe my too sons (J&B)do not know me. I'm one of the most conservative kids from Texas of 10 children in a Catholic family. You think I don't love the Constitution and love this country for what all those before me gave their lives to protect for me and my family? Really?
The point, again, what for the umtenth time. All this religious deflection is not pointing to the real concern. Who is funding this? If it is just innocent Muslims that "just want to get along", then that is wonderful. but the point is that no ones knows at this point. If it is funded by those that destroyed NY on 9/11 and that want to murder every one of us, then we have a serious problem and I see all on this thread agree. That was my only point. It was not to trash the Constitution. Obama is doing that quite nicely by himself.
I agree that the backlash against Muslims and Islam is fanatic, but the problem has fueled by their lack of action I think. Where are the organized Muslims that are fighting to get their religion back from the radicals? Why are they so invisible and silent? Where is their public outcry and organization to support keeping Americans safe? I did a quick google search and find a few web sites that indeed state this, but why are they not more public? That seems odd. If I were them I'd have a publicity team fighting back against the bad perceptions the bad apples, i.e. terrorist in the name of Islam, give them.
I pray for your generation, as in mine and before, we understood our enemy better. Starting after WWII though, communist and socialist learned that they had to learn more about using American freedoms to take over our country. I see this happening more and more every day. It is a fine line to give rights to terroists that want to kill every one of us. How do you define that line?
One big concern that people have against Muslims is that their fundamental religion of Islam is a direct contradiction in American laws in so many ways, i.e. Sharia law. It will be hard for your generation to protect human life and dignity according to our Constitution and not violate their religion. Quite difficult. Hope y'all figure this one out some day, as soon Sharia law will take precedent over our laws. Already I heard this week on the radio that a judge found a man innocent of repeated rape and abuse to his wife (yes she said no), because he cried "religions freedom". I pray for all those women that suffer at the hands of a bastardized religion that abuses human life.
R
by the way, K, I didn't take offense. Was actually quite perplexed by your comment / question. But knowing you all misinterpreted what I said, it's understandable.
R
...oh J.....Olberman is still a JERK! He is a liar at every turn and just one of the biggest progressive socialist you'll find with a microphone and camera. That is why he can only get a job on NBC. he is one of the guys that understands how to manipulate our Constitution for the gain of the socialist progressive party (i.e. Communist) agenda. Look into him more and what he does and says. He is ignorant and an idiot. Here is an example of his stupidity and rudeness and why he should be thrown off the TV, especially for saying GD on TV and NBC even airing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9LviuJsIU&feature=player_embedded
T
"Where are the organized Muslims that are fighting to get their religion back from the radicals? Why are they so invisible and silent?"
Do you think that any sort of action will be taken in good light. And just the same with Christianity, is there really a fight to put down the power behind the Tea Party movement? I'm sure the Muslim people just want to live their lives just as anyone else does.
My question is, what happens when the shoe's on the other foot. Say atheists become the dominant culture and Christianity becomes threatened. Are you going to still have the same mentality where the majority should bully the minority rather than trying to coexist and allow for peaceful activities? Just because one sect is seemingly more dangerous than another? And if you think Christianity isn't dangerous, I refer you to pretty much every war in the West since the Crusades.
And I think if you want to define "the line", the best way is to educate the people on the multiculturalism and that most Muslims have foundations that very much mirror that of Christians. A large portion of the Quran tells the same story as the Bible's Old Testament, just from a different narrative viewpoint. I'm pretty sure that allowing religious freedom will not result in Sharia law.
R
Tea Party movement to oust corrupt and socialist politicians are now brought into this conversation of radical killing Muslims that want to destroy us in the name of Islam? Not seeing the connection at all now. And what does a political party have to do with this religious rights discussion? Odd comparison.
R
Maybe folks that don't want to fight for American laws should just leave and go to Australia. Oh, no, forgot.... The sick people that site their Islamic law are killing people there too. he says in this interview, "there are two laws...there is an Islamic Law." There are not two laws in civilized society. Can Sharia law even coexist with a civilized democracy or republic? Therein lies the real problem.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ce7_1254826200
R
"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." "Women are your fields. Go, then, into your fields as you please" (Sura 2, v. 223).
http://politics.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/04/07/no-god-but-god.html
T
Tea Partiers do not want to pay taxes, and people such as Joe Miller, who is running for senator in Alaska, wants to abolish everything that was not originally in the constitution. For him, this means no education system. In a debate, Lisa Murkowski rebutted by asking him about the Air Force -- no response. This is non-nonsensical. Capitalism does not look out for the average person. These people are being duped by those who should be paying more taxes.
And religion and politics are so intrinsically tied that it's hard to find boundaries. Muslim fundamentalists are seeking to uphold their morals, Tea Partiers are backed by Fundamentalist Christianity ideas. The US tries to separate church and state, but really one ideology fuels the other. Our laws are based on our morals, our morals are grounded in our faith. Atheists may not claim to believe in a God, but being reared in a God-fearing country they are surrounded by the Christian culture and are still highly influenced by it.
T
And I am fighting for American laws. I'm fighting for the First Amendment, but all you Muslimphobes don't seem to think that these people should fit into the same equation as "Real Americans". Everyone here is an immigrant of some sort and our culture has morphed to fit the influx of all these varying cultures. And as you may have learned, no religion founded this country. Christianity was thrust into the political scene after the founding fathers set things up. It was a movement in the 30s and later that added "In God we trust".
And I'm not promoting a second set of laws and I'm not really sure who is. I really just thought that you'd be appalled by Sharia law because it promotes taxes and free trade.
T
OK, do you really want me to pull some crap out of the Bible that says some equally antiquated misogynistic dribble? It's there. We're dealing with laws that are thousands of years old. There is going to be stuff in there that no longer applies to our current culture. This is why culture evolves and so should the laws and morals governing it.
R
"Capitalism does not look out for the average person." Exposed! That says it all. The End.
T
Clearly. Even with as corrupt as it is, the government has checks and balances to help people out. Capitalism would run amok without it. Glad we see eye-to-eye on something.
R
uhhhh..... NOT! I am not a socialist. I believe in true freedom of free enterprise. Nor do I believe our government was created to "look after" the citizens. The Constitution was written to protect the citizens of this country FROM the government. It was not written to enable the government to control our lives or the economy or any one sector of the economy like cars, insurance, banks, our health, etc, as recent corrupt politicians have perverted our laws. It seems some want to pick out what they like about our Bill of Rights and our Constitution and trash the rest in the name of helping our fellow man. How about people just helping our fellow man without being so lazy and expecting government to do it for them? Where does it say in the Constitution or any founding documents that our government is to protect its citizens from stupid or corrupt business deals? I just don't remember ever seeing that.
T
So regulation has no place, like, say with BP's deep-sea drilling escapade? Who is going to make BP pay for the devastation they've caused? BP? Unlikely.
"It seems some want to pick out what they like about our Bill of Rights and our Constitution and trash the rest."
I find this funny as, going back to our "mosque" scenario, you're basically disregarding the First Amendment as a means to solve what you see as a problem.
Ya know. I too have a distaste for those who are lazy and don't strive to help themselves. However, if we're talking about working the system, it's not only those at the bottom, those at the top do as well. I suppose that's your point in fingering all those dirty politicians, but I've once heard that "absolute power corrupts absolutely". You can get in fresh blood, but it's always going to be somebody grabbing for the bigger piece of the pie. Government, as faulty as it is, is our best mechanism for balancing the inevitable.
R
Show me the "devastation" BP caused. Really! Oil is a natural substance and is biodegradable. The environmentalist don't point this out, as they are against "big oil" i.e. capitalism (oooooo! there's that bad word!) and they don't want to confuse people with environmental facts that go against their socialist "government protection of the people" agenda. The only real devastation, that I witnessed personally in my regular travels to that region, was the loss of tourism as a result of the over exaggerated media stories of oil on the beach.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bp-oil-spill-crude-mother-nature-breaks-slick/story?id=11254252
Back to religious freedom topic of this thread, I've never disagreed with the Bill of Rights. Let's get it straight by looking at the exact word, which are brief in fact.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
No one has suggested that the government in NY should make laws that "prohibit the free exercise" of Muslims practicing their religion. The Bill of Rights does not guarantee that any religion can put up any building anywhere they wish either. Let's say a church was to buy up houses in a neighborhood and decide to tear them all down and build a church right in the middle of the other houses. According to some, they should have the right from the Bill of Rights to do so. Just not true. Zoning and local customs dictate what buildings are appropriate for specific places.
Besides, my point has always been that this is about the funding and the money, but most refuse to hear this. This Inam or Iman ..whatever.. and this "congregation" used to be poor. Where did this money come from and what was the motivation of those who gave it to him? If it came from the same radicals that blew up NY, then yes we should all be concerned. I'm tired of typing the same thing over and over. I'm done. It's time for people to wake up and find the truth, instead of arguing the Bill of Rights which all Americans agree with!
T
Oil is biodegradable, as is pretty much everything given enough time, HOWEVER, how long are you willing to give for these substances to "disappear"? Living in Alaska you still hear stories of people digging less than a foot into the shores of Prince William Sound and finding a layer of oil. It may be hidden, but it's not gone. And that was from more than 20 years ago. You must be willing to allot more than a generation for this "harmless" biodegradable product.
So if there's a pre-existing community center that's been there since the 70s, then what's the big deal? Seems like it's already zoned for it. This is just an argument that's trying to back the sentiments of people's hatred for the religion but it doesn't quite work. But tell me, how to "local customs" come into this? Especially since that area is riddled with cultural diversity seen from here to the heart of Mesopotamia.
Do we even know who these "radicals" are that blew up the NY WTC? That might make the connection difficult to trace.
We have very differing versions of the First Amendment. Yours fits the viewpoint of the insular, fearful American, mine is the view that every citizen, regardless of ethnicity or creed should have the ability and right to do what is listed under that amendment.
And coming from your POV, why does it really matter where the money comes from? In a capitalist society this shouldn't be of anyone's concern. Whoever has the most money wins. All other rules are negligible and/or subject to being bought and changed by the highest bidder.
Oh, but you have a distaste for outsiders who have money? Well, without a government sticking its nose into your economic life and creating its socialist policies, it's going to be hard to keep these powerful people out of your country's affairs and pockets. Especially after the hole that past politicians have put us in trying to bring democracy to those who are now playing the capitalist game.
R
Well, heat does indeed stimulate biodegradability of any carbon based product or organism, like a human body slowly decaying on the cool beach of Alaska from the frigid waters of the northern Pacific versus disappearing quickly in the heat of the 95 degree plus Gulf of Mexico beach. It is a proven fact, and is not arguable to intelligent educated people. Half life of crude is only a couple months. Full biodegredation at 20 C can be in less than a year.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25044389
On the mosque, it would be best to get the facts straight. NO one has argued that the existing structure and congregation should leave. Thus to answer, there is "no big deal" with a "pre-existing community center...since the 70s". Indeed it is already zoned. It is not about hatred; that is what socialist say against people that debate them when they know they cannot win a debate on facts. The concern is that they should not be building a building that looks like a monument.
http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/replicate/EXID46407/images/amd_wtc_concept%281%29.jpg
Comments posted here reveal that the writer does not even know that this 70's building is proposed to be torn down and rebuilt with an influx of funds from unknown sources to stand up and be a monument to stick out for the radical Muslims to show as a win for their perverted inhuman and lawless causes. This has been done all over the world in other similar devastated and attacked places over history.
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1496/mosques-on-sacred-sites-of-defeated-enemies
Outsiders who have money? Really. Most of our country is owned by "outsiders". That is what happens in a capitalist system, save the areas protected for national security reasons. No, its simply about making sure that people that want to kill YOU do not have a place to call theirs in your neighborhood, and in this case it is NY; and that we not allow the wrong message to be sent to those enemies.
T
.01 to 1g seems pretty small compared to the massive amounts of oil released in the Gulf. And the ocean may be much cooler up here, but you compared the water temp of Alaska to the air temperature of the Gulf. The Gulf only gets to about 80-85F, which granted, is more than Prince William Sound's 55F, but it's not quite the spread that you tried to make it out to be.
From your link: "This analysis suggests that crude oil biodegradation in seawater is relatively slow and indicates that further research is required to bridge the gap between laboratory and field systems."
I'd also say that this study isn't very conclusive.
"Indeed [the community center] is already zoned." Then why did you bring that up in the discussion? Red herring perhaps? But I like that you have now adapted your argument. And this is the first time I've heard about the monument-esque building, so thanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51
"Plans to build Cordoba House were noted in December 2009, at a location that was already in use for Muslim worship. The plans were reviewed by the local community board in May 2010, at which time they attracted some national media attention. The project's organizers state that it is intended to be "a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America, and globally," and have stated that it is modeled on the noted Manhattan Jewish community and cultural center, the 92nd Street Y. The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews."
These causes seem like very "perverted inhuman [sic] and lawless". No fear or hatred here.
And I guess my next question should be, what is defined as "the areas protected for national security reasons"? The WTC is already gone. Will the site really be struck again? I can see how this might be misconstrued as a jab at Americans over what happened, but not our security.
Really, the best way to fight is with education and tolerance, not discrimination. If money is coming in and stimulating the economy how can a capitalist be angry? Because their fear and mistrust outshines it. But that's the name of the capitalist game: Watch your back or get it stabbed. None of this community-minded bullshit, well, unless you're one of our own.
R
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshxx."
T
Education = bullshit. I'll remember that one.
R
"If it's on the internet, it has to be true!"
Real NY Mosque Plan Revealed, from NY Mediaworks:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100822123107/uncyclopedia/images/f/fc/G0M.jpg
How about this source of "education"? It has the same join and add whatever you like policy as wikipedia.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
As one gets older one learns to more easily discern real education from propaganda.
T
You have to believe something...
What I will say is that you should see what sex education (or lack thereof) has done for Bristol Palin. If you enrich someone with the knowledge of something that is normally foreign to them, they'll learn that it's not something to be feared. And they will learn what to expect and will be familiar with the topic. "There's nothing to fear but fear itself."
Much of the Qur'an mirrors the Bible but seemingly no one knows this because propaganda only tells them what they should think about the subject. Looking at what's really behind the pages might open up one's eyes and show that Muslims aren't "inhuman and lawless". We're creating a war zone out of our own fears.
R
Oh yeah man.... men gotta love Islam and their book of rules.
"Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them." "Women are your fields. Go, then, into your fields as you please" (Sura 2, v. 223).
http://politics.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/04/07/no-god-but-god.html?PageNr=3
T
Ephesians 5:22-24 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
R
OMG! Seriously? Christians are not on record using this to justify raping and abusing their wives, as Muslims have already been acquitted in courts in the US by using their religion to justify such. Let's stay real.
T
I'm just showing the similarities, I'm not saying they're justified. However, Christians used to be on the record as owning human beings and disallowing certain freedoms to certain people. Do we really want to digress back to that?
And this is what I could find with a quick google search: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/sharia-in-new-jersey-muslim-husband-rapes-wife-judge-sees-no-sexual-assault-because-husbands-religio.html
Looks as though the appellate court reversed the decision.
Labels: capitalism, christian, evolution, gods, muslim, religion, socialist
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