Winter Solstice Celebration
I was originally writing this as a response to a blog post called Osiris Claus. Where I see that it does have a bit of the history behind the advent of Christmas, I think there's much more to it. Here I tried to delve into it but have also not done a thorough job and throw in tangents that may not be necessary. Take out of it what you will, but my point was to show that what we take as faith as handed down by our culture has deeper and forgotten roots. This should lead one to possibly think about the "truth" in religion and if we should believe what we do.
This is my response:
The problem with Santa, among other traditions seen in the US today, is that these ideas come from an amalgamation of past religions, mostly from the Western half of the Old World. So the problem lies in the fact that over thousands of years each culture seems to create their own religious figures, all the while borrowing from the ideologies of cultures that they interact with. In Mesopotamia and around the Mediterranean, there's so much interaction going on that any religion ends up being bastardized by whichever culture has the most power of the day, or merely which has the power of drawing favor.
Personally, I think Santa in today's use comes from a 4th century Nicholas of Myra; where Myra happens to lie in what is today Turkey. His story goes that he took all of his wealth and made three golden balls which he rolled into the window of some recently orphaned sisters. One of the balls happened to roll into a stocking.
Before this, it can be taken in a number of directions. I enjoy the Osiris angle, although you kept the story PG by failing to mention that after Set dismembered Osiris' body and Isis collected it all, she was unable to locate his penis, as a catfish had eaten it. This is where the whole "Immaculate Conception" thing comes into play.
This brings me to my next point. I believe that it's not actually Osiris that has the December 25th birthday, but rather Horus, Osiris and Isis' child. However, as mentioned before, things get sticky here. We're talking about a thousand or more years of Egyptian religious evolution where different dynasties promoted different ideas. So it is believed that Osiris is Horus' father, but eventually the two melded together to become one single deity. Just to make it more confusing, I believe Ra was also thrown into the mix. And to make things even more confusing, Isis is often switched out with the goddess Hathor who was the wife of Ra, so has therefore become boththe mother and wife of Horus. Oh, and finally, Atum was eventually also considered to be the same deity as Ra/Osiris who were the sun god.
And this is the big thing here. All the major deities seem to be the sun god. Odin is found in Norse ideology, Saturn/Kronos with the Greek, Indra with the Hindu, Baal with the Canaanites, Ashur/Shamash in Assyrian, and so on.
But tied with these gods are generally two other deities creating a trinity, for example, Thor with the Norse, Apollo in Greece, Krishna/Vishnu with Hindu, Resheph for the Canaanites, and Mithra in Zoroastrianism. Most often these are the sons of the sun god.
Then to seal up the trinity, usually there is a female associated with the two, often times being the mother of the son. This is Freya/Volva with the Norse, Minerva/Aphrodite in Greece, Shiva in Hindu, Apam Napat in Zoroastrianism, and Astarte in Ugaritic (which is actually where we get the name "Easter").
Oh, and so if you haven't caught on yet, there's also that Trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost. What I think is amusing is that the Egyptian trinity eventually got to the point where the gender of the female third became ambiguous and forgotten about. But what was this portion of the trinity associated with? The "breath" or soul of the people.
Why I bother to mention all of this is to show a common theme over a variety of religions. And why might there be this universal belief about the universe? Well, I believe it's all tied to the recordation of our seasonal trends and celestial movements tied to them. Everyone seems to have a celebration of the solstices and equinoxes and sometimes the half-way points in between. Check out this "Wheel of the Year": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_the_Year
OK, so now back to Christmas. The idea of the "Christmas Tree" can be linked back to Egypt, like you said. However, down there the most ubiquitous tree is the palm tree, which is said to grow one branch a month, representing a sort of calendar with the twelfth branch to grow signaling the winter solstice and New Year. Looking around the Mediterranean cultures seem to gravitate to a given tree that is a staple to their society. Often the sun god was said to have lived in a given tree. The Norse had the Yggdrasil which brought forth the idea of the Yule log. The druids held the Oak tree in high reverence. Romans clung onto the idea that evergreen trees held some sort of power as they stay green even through the year, so they would decorate their house with them during the winter for good luck. Oh, and by the way, crosses made out of pine trees were often used as a representative of the "tree of life".
As for the celebration of Christmas itself, it can be linked back to the honoring of the Sun God, Saturn, by the Romans. They had a festival named Saturnalia where societal roles became reversed. Slaves would wear a hat called a Pileus (which made them look a bit like Santa) and were served meals by their masters. People would greet each other by shouting "Io, Saturnalia", Io being an exclamation which later became Latinized to "Ho".
With this holiday, pretty much everything from the justice system to any merchant shop were shut down for a week. Originally these days were December 17-23, eventually varying Caesars pushed it back to five and three days of celebration. On the original schedule, the fifth and sixth days were when presents were made and given to children which seems a bit like the modern Christmas tradition.
But the crazy part about this that has thankfully since been forgotten are all of the human sacrifices. Christmas starts of the "Twelve Days of Christmas" which, traditionally was seen as twelve days of bonfires to celebrate the renewal of the sun. On one of these twelve days following Christmas, the 29th of December, the Catholics celebrate "Childermas" or the "Massacre of the Holy Innocents". This is the day that is said to have been when Herod was told of a Savior's birth (Jesus) who would one day take over his throne. So it was said that he sent his soldiers out to kill all of the newborns on that day. However, within past celebrations, there was once the tradition of putting clay dolls under an evergreen tree. This may have replaced even older practice of sacrificing children as a way of giving up their blood to re-energize the sun as it seems to stand still on the day of the solstice. Children were actually put under a tree, something like the Yule log, and were lit afire. Today this may be why we light up our Christmas trees.
As a reference, I point to the Bible, Ezekiel 20:26-31:
26 I let them pollute themselves with the very gifts I had given them, and I allowed them to give their firstborn children as offerings to their gods--so I might devastate them and show them that I alone am the LORD.
27 "Therefore, son of man, give the people of Israel this message from the Sovereign LORD: Your ancestors continued to blaspheme and betray me,
28 for when I brought them into the land I had promised them, they offered sacrifices and incense on every high hill and under every green tree they saw! They roused my fury as they offered up sacrifices to their gods. They brought their perfumes and incense and poured out their drink offerings to them!
29 I said to them, `What is this high place where you are going?' (This idol shrine has been called Bamah--`high place'--ever since.)
30 "Therefore, give the people of Israel this message from the Sovereign LORD: Do you plan to pollute yourselves just as your ancestors did? Do you intend to keep prostituting yourselves by worshiping detestable idols?
31 For when you offer gifts to them and give your little children to be burned as sacrifices,* you continue to pollute yourselves to this day. Should I listen to you or help you, O people of Israel? As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I will not give you a message even though you have come to me requesting one.
Another long-forgotten tradition held within the Twelve days of Christmas was done on the twelfth day. This involved nominating a "King of Fools". This twelfth day is the 6th of January, which is also known as "Epiphany" and as the day that was thought to be when the Magi found Baby Jesus and gave him His three gifts. The process of selecting this "king" was done in a variety of manners depending upon one's location, but was often figured out by putting a bean into a bread and he who came up with the bean was the "Chosen One".
Once chosen this person was proclaimed the "King of Fools" they could do whatever they wanted -- anything hedonistic or sacrilegious. Asses were lead into the places of worship and palms fronds were hung up in the trees. A procession was done and the "King of Fools" was given a crown of holly (which is rather thorny) and a purple robe to denote prestige. Ritual flagellations were also done. The only downside to this hierarchical jump in status was that once the end of this month was completed, the chosen king would have to slit his own throat. The odd thing is that as the evergreen pine was a revered tree, a pine cross was often used as a symbol of this "tree of life".
Now it may be obvious that in our modern world we've moved from Christmas to a story commonly associated with Easter. It went from the birth of the Son/Sun, to their death. This is difficult to explain, but what I think about this is that this Christmas celebration looks at the solar year. Other cultures such as the Babylonians, take eleven days to celebrate the New Year in the spring, as this is when the lunar year is thought to come full circle.
I won't get much into Easter, but the very ironic thing about the Christian celebration of this holiday is that it is named after the Semitic deity Astarte. She is the lunar warrior goddess that represents fertility and in Egyptian ideology was said to be a daughter of Ra.
Just like Christmas, Easter wasn't celebrated until the fourth century. Before this time Passover was celebrated and can be seen as a correlation to the holiday in other European names for the day, for instance the Spanish call Easter "Pascua". Where the idea of eggs and a giant bunny come in is another story, and just as silly as Santa Claus and a Christmas tree. I suppose you can't ask for much less when you have over two thousand years of tradition where the reason for doing what you do to bring back fond memories of one's childhood has been lost to the ages.
This is my response:
The problem with Santa, among other traditions seen in the US today, is that these ideas come from an amalgamation of past religions, mostly from the Western half of the Old World. So the problem lies in the fact that over thousands of years each culture seems to create their own religious figures, all the while borrowing from the ideologies of cultures that they interact with. In Mesopotamia and around the Mediterranean, there's so much interaction going on that any religion ends up being bastardized by whichever culture has the most power of the day, or merely which has the power of drawing favor.
Personally, I think Santa in today's use comes from a 4th century Nicholas of Myra; where Myra happens to lie in what is today Turkey. His story goes that he took all of his wealth and made three golden balls which he rolled into the window of some recently orphaned sisters. One of the balls happened to roll into a stocking.
Before this, it can be taken in a number of directions. I enjoy the Osiris angle, although you kept the story PG by failing to mention that after Set dismembered Osiris' body and Isis collected it all, she was unable to locate his penis, as a catfish had eaten it. This is where the whole "Immaculate Conception" thing comes into play.
This brings me to my next point. I believe that it's not actually Osiris that has the December 25th birthday, but rather Horus, Osiris and Isis' child. However, as mentioned before, things get sticky here. We're talking about a thousand or more years of Egyptian religious evolution where different dynasties promoted different ideas. So it is believed that Osiris is Horus' father, but eventually the two melded together to become one single deity. Just to make it more confusing, I believe Ra was also thrown into the mix. And to make things even more confusing, Isis is often switched out with the goddess Hathor who was the wife of Ra, so has therefore become boththe mother and wife of Horus. Oh, and finally, Atum was eventually also considered to be the same deity as Ra/Osiris who were the sun god.
And this is the big thing here. All the major deities seem to be the sun god. Odin is found in Norse ideology, Saturn/Kronos with the Greek, Indra with the Hindu, Baal with the Canaanites, Ashur/Shamash in Assyrian, and so on.
But tied with these gods are generally two other deities creating a trinity, for example, Thor with the Norse, Apollo in Greece, Krishna/Vishnu with Hindu, Resheph for the Canaanites, and Mithra in Zoroastrianism. Most often these are the sons of the sun god.
Then to seal up the trinity, usually there is a female associated with the two, often times being the mother of the son. This is Freya/Volva with the Norse, Minerva/Aphrodite in Greece, Shiva in Hindu, Apam Napat in Zoroastrianism, and Astarte in Ugaritic (which is actually where we get the name "Easter").
Oh, and so if you haven't caught on yet, there's also that Trinity of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost. What I think is amusing is that the Egyptian trinity eventually got to the point where the gender of the female third became ambiguous and forgotten about. But what was this portion of the trinity associated with? The "breath" or soul of the people.
Why I bother to mention all of this is to show a common theme over a variety of religions. And why might there be this universal belief about the universe? Well, I believe it's all tied to the recordation of our seasonal trends and celestial movements tied to them. Everyone seems to have a celebration of the solstices and equinoxes and sometimes the half-way points in between. Check out this "Wheel of the Year": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_the_Year
OK, so now back to Christmas. The idea of the "Christmas Tree" can be linked back to Egypt, like you said. However, down there the most ubiquitous tree is the palm tree, which is said to grow one branch a month, representing a sort of calendar with the twelfth branch to grow signaling the winter solstice and New Year. Looking around the Mediterranean cultures seem to gravitate to a given tree that is a staple to their society. Often the sun god was said to have lived in a given tree. The Norse had the Yggdrasil which brought forth the idea of the Yule log. The druids held the Oak tree in high reverence. Romans clung onto the idea that evergreen trees held some sort of power as they stay green even through the year, so they would decorate their house with them during the winter for good luck. Oh, and by the way, crosses made out of pine trees were often used as a representative of the "tree of life".
As for the celebration of Christmas itself, it can be linked back to the honoring of the Sun God, Saturn, by the Romans. They had a festival named Saturnalia where societal roles became reversed. Slaves would wear a hat called a Pileus (which made them look a bit like Santa) and were served meals by their masters. People would greet each other by shouting "Io, Saturnalia", Io being an exclamation which later became Latinized to "Ho".
With this holiday, pretty much everything from the justice system to any merchant shop were shut down for a week. Originally these days were December 17-23, eventually varying Caesars pushed it back to five and three days of celebration. On the original schedule, the fifth and sixth days were when presents were made and given to children which seems a bit like the modern Christmas tradition.
But the crazy part about this that has thankfully since been forgotten are all of the human sacrifices. Christmas starts of the "Twelve Days of Christmas" which, traditionally was seen as twelve days of bonfires to celebrate the renewal of the sun. On one of these twelve days following Christmas, the 29th of December, the Catholics celebrate "Childermas" or the "Massacre of the Holy Innocents". This is the day that is said to have been when Herod was told of a Savior's birth (Jesus) who would one day take over his throne. So it was said that he sent his soldiers out to kill all of the newborns on that day. However, within past celebrations, there was once the tradition of putting clay dolls under an evergreen tree. This may have replaced even older practice of sacrificing children as a way of giving up their blood to re-energize the sun as it seems to stand still on the day of the solstice. Children were actually put under a tree, something like the Yule log, and were lit afire. Today this may be why we light up our Christmas trees.
As a reference, I point to the Bible, Ezekiel 20:26-31:
26 I let them pollute themselves with the very gifts I had given them, and I allowed them to give their firstborn children as offerings to their gods--so I might devastate them and show them that I alone am the LORD.
27 "Therefore, son of man, give the people of Israel this message from the Sovereign LORD: Your ancestors continued to blaspheme and betray me,
28 for when I brought them into the land I had promised them, they offered sacrifices and incense on every high hill and under every green tree they saw! They roused my fury as they offered up sacrifices to their gods. They brought their perfumes and incense and poured out their drink offerings to them!
29 I said to them, `What is this high place where you are going?' (This idol shrine has been called Bamah--`high place'--ever since.)
30 "Therefore, give the people of Israel this message from the Sovereign LORD: Do you plan to pollute yourselves just as your ancestors did? Do you intend to keep prostituting yourselves by worshiping detestable idols?
31 For when you offer gifts to them and give your little children to be burned as sacrifices,* you continue to pollute yourselves to this day. Should I listen to you or help you, O people of Israel? As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I will not give you a message even though you have come to me requesting one.
Another long-forgotten tradition held within the Twelve days of Christmas was done on the twelfth day. This involved nominating a "King of Fools". This twelfth day is the 6th of January, which is also known as "Epiphany" and as the day that was thought to be when the Magi found Baby Jesus and gave him His three gifts. The process of selecting this "king" was done in a variety of manners depending upon one's location, but was often figured out by putting a bean into a bread and he who came up with the bean was the "Chosen One".
Once chosen this person was proclaimed the "King of Fools" they could do whatever they wanted -- anything hedonistic or sacrilegious. Asses were lead into the places of worship and palms fronds were hung up in the trees. A procession was done and the "King of Fools" was given a crown of holly (which is rather thorny) and a purple robe to denote prestige. Ritual flagellations were also done. The only downside to this hierarchical jump in status was that once the end of this month was completed, the chosen king would have to slit his own throat. The odd thing is that as the evergreen pine was a revered tree, a pine cross was often used as a symbol of this "tree of life".
Now it may be obvious that in our modern world we've moved from Christmas to a story commonly associated with Easter. It went from the birth of the Son/Sun, to their death. This is difficult to explain, but what I think about this is that this Christmas celebration looks at the solar year. Other cultures such as the Babylonians, take eleven days to celebrate the New Year in the spring, as this is when the lunar year is thought to come full circle.
I won't get much into Easter, but the very ironic thing about the Christian celebration of this holiday is that it is named after the Semitic deity Astarte. She is the lunar warrior goddess that represents fertility and in Egyptian ideology was said to be a daughter of Ra.
Just like Christmas, Easter wasn't celebrated until the fourth century. Before this time Passover was celebrated and can be seen as a correlation to the holiday in other European names for the day, for instance the Spanish call Easter "Pascua". Where the idea of eggs and a giant bunny come in is another story, and just as silly as Santa Claus and a Christmas tree. I suppose you can't ask for much less when you have over two thousand years of tradition where the reason for doing what you do to bring back fond memories of one's childhood has been lost to the ages.
Labels: Christmas, Easter, gods, Jesus, religion, saturnalia, winter solstice
31 Comments:
Someday I'll tell you how the Easter Bunny is actually Sumerian. ;)
Brilliant!
I've come to notice that the "Queen of Heaven" or "Great Goddess" from a variety of religions seem to be tied with the moon and earth. The moon might be for obvious, physiological reasons, and the earth, well a lot of the times she is associated with a cave.
She is then a part of a trinity or associated to one where the others are male and are gods of the sky/rain, sea, and underworld.
Regardless, Now with that one word, Sumerian, you're going to send me on another crazy trip down into the internet recesses. I suppose I should thank you. I was aware of Innana, but not her story.
"...my point was to show that what we take as faith as handed down by our culture has deeper and forgotten roots."
Yeah, see. Here's the problem I have whenever you make this assertion. It isn't that it's not true, per se. The problem is that it is true for every aspect of culture yet, when you make these arguments you seem to be acting on the notion that some things handed down by culture don't have deeper, forgotten roots. When in fact, I would argue, nearly every single aspect of culture does...
You don't take issue with any aspects of culture that don't personally get your goat, even though they may have been buried with just as much deep and forgotten history. It's only religion and certain other cultural institutions (marriage? holidays you don't like?)that you do.
"..The problem with Santa, among other traditions seen in the US today,..."
AMERICA IS A MELTING POT. Everything in American culture is an amalgamation of things handed down from previous times and cultures. What's wrong with that? Culture is no more static, no less evolving than things affected by biology. It just deals more with the whims of human preference and influence.
Don't get me wrong. Tracing the roots of cultural institutions is interesting shit. It just annoys me that you only see fit to do it as a way to deconstruct for the purpose of devaluing cultural institutions you don't like.
For me, the deconstruction and deeper understandings doesn't necessarily preclude any sort of enjoyment of said cultural institutions. On this particular subject, especially given than I already approach Christmas from a secular standpoint, it only adds value.
"The problem is that it is true for every aspect of culture yet, when you make these arguments you seem to be acting on the notion that some things handed down by culture don't have deeper, forgotten roots. When in fact, I would argue, nearly every single aspect of culture does..."
I was not arguing against this. I'm merely pointing out that some are more ridiculous than others. To take Christianity to heart as a "true" faith, this disregards all of the pieces of a variety of cultures that have come together to create this religion. If people want to be purely spiritual and want Christianity as a template, then I suppose that's Ok, but to ignore where these stories came from is another thing. It's like celebrating the Fourth of July merely with fireworks but totally forgetting why the holiday was is remembered in the first place.
There are other portions of our culture that I find silly, but ideology is a big one as it rules some peoples lives to the point where they're willing to die for their beliefs. So in that sense I'm drawn to it moreso than other aspects of our culture.
But I realize that it's a double-edged sword. All our morals and laws come from these religions, but all our wars and societal idiocracy have spawned from them as well.
My point is the more religious aspect of the holiday. I suppose that Santa and Christmas trees aren't exactly supporting the idea of Jesus, but it's what our society has clung to. And these have spawned from more European roots, so I suppose the majority of us in the US with European roots should be grateful for this. However, we're missing out on the reasons for why we celebrate. It was to celebrate the cycle and path that our earth is on. We celebrate the solstice and to a degree this was merely a way to keep a calendar and give people something to look forward to.
But! For a lot of people this religion thing is set in stone and they don't realize that what they believe has a deeper past. This is where I take issue. You say that you realize that culture is dynamic, but these people only believe in ONE BOOK and this book is said to be the end all and everything that humanity knows, if referenced in this book is set in stone.
You of all people should be well aware of the strife that this causes in our current society. Social conservatives are rooted in the fact that God's word is final and even if something isn't explicit in the Bible, but Christianity's leaders have translated an idea with a certain focus, then what is said goes.
Like you're saying, people should realize that culture is fluid and that our moral beliefs CAN AND DO change with time. If you're stuck in the rut of only believing that Jesus was born, rather than the possibility that in some aspects of his story it can be said that Mithra was born, Krishan was born, Apollo was born, Horus was born, Tammuz was born, Dumuzid was born, Marduk was born, Resheph was born, Thor was born, or that Zeus was born, and you have the same story, then something is wrong.
Granted teasing everything out is a difficult process, but that's what happens when everyone borrows from everyone else. But it should at least be acknowledged that what is said to be SOLID FACT, has only been around for 1700 years, and there are a lot more ideas out there that were directly drawn on to create this ideology.
Now I'm not totally trying to be a downer. As solstice is celebrated world-wide, I'm not going to be the one to say that it should stop. However, I think rather than dwelling on some superfluous reason, such as somebody was born or died, it should just be a celebration of family and friends. If there happens to be an excuse on a day that happens brings people together, be it because there will be more sun in the future or that we're starting a new lunar cycle, then so be it. I enjoy family and don't mind an excuse to see them.
However, I'm very grateful that we no longer deem it necessary to incorporate human sacrifices with our celebrating. Humans have evolved culturally in a better direction in this sense. Although back then I suppose this was a great way to keep human population numbers down. If one is to sacrifice infants then there are a lot less resources "lost" on something that wasn't going to be a productive member of society. Now that's a downer to end on. My bad.
Yeah, but you use this sort of deconstruction to not only prove why Christianity can't claim to be a true faith...but to further devalue any cultural institutions that might have their roots in many Christian traditions (which in turn borrowed them from other religious traditions) regardless of whether or not the institution is even really and entirely a religous institution anymore.
Santa Clause and Christmas Trees are a prime example.
And Jesus isn't even really what our society has clung to. Yes, a huge portion of people in our society have...but when it comes down to it,that's not what it's about for many/most. It's about all the things that all festivals have always been about: celebrating, bringing relatives together, sharing wealth.
It is influence by religion, because most culture throughout history has been...and now it's also influence by the religion of consumerism...But at it's root, it's really not so different than any other winter festival, in any other culture, has ever been. And what's so bad about that? Especially given that we have given up on the whole sacrifice of humans aspect?
(edit: wrote that paragraph before reading your entire reply. Seeing your final paragraph...my reply is this: I think for must of us Christmas is exactly what you want it to be already. )
"...But! For a lot of people this religion thing is set in stone and they don't realize that what they believe has a deeper past. This is where I take issue..."
See, this is where you and I I differ. Maybe I'm just a better cultural relativist than you...but I don't have a problem with this. Throughout history people have very rarely been aware of any of the fallacies, inaccuracies, ironies, shallowness or depth of ANY of their cultural beliefs. It is VERY HARD to look outside of the cultural mileau in which we were raised. Yes, people can do it...but by and large, the masses never have and they never will. It's simply part of being human. And, as far as I'm concerned...I don't give a lick whether people choose to believe one book is the one and only truth...UNTIL they start attempting to force me to act in accordance with those beliefs too. Just so long as they can keep their religion mostly to themselves, avoid starting wars and that sort thing...So what. I don't care what they believe.
I'm not willing to cast asperions upon the whole cast of a certain type of believers just because others in that cast happen to be or have been giant, world changing d-bags (or even small, not world changing d-bags.)
"...You of all people should be well aware of the strife that this causes in our current society. Social conservatives are rooted in the fact that God's word is final..."
Exactly my point. This is when religion becomes a problem. But it doesn't mean it is the only problem, and it doesn't mean it is ALWAYS a problem. There are plenty of people who have no problem compartmentalizing their individual religious beliefs and their beliefs about what the proper role of government is...
Anyway. This is all kind of tangential and disconnected. But so was your original post.
I'm not devaluing them, I'm merely stating that they have deeper origins. OK, so maybe I am, but they're the one's who are saying that they are the TRUE faith, when a little bit of research can prove the contrary.
And these faiths may not all be around anymore, but they were integral in spawning ALL of the Western religions that have survived through today: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wiccan, Greek/Russian Orthodox. Even New World cultures seem to have some stories that have a bit of overlapping. The moon is a female deity and dismemberment is a part of a resurrection story.
I think what's cooler about the deconstruction is that maybe someday somebody will find a universal connection to all religions.
And as for the celebration aspect, you obviously didn't read what I wrote. I said it's nice to get together with family, etc.
So if being ignorant of your culture is part of being human, then maybe I don't want to be human. Don't people want to know the story of their past? I mean, not the one that's just forced upon them, but the real one. The one that is mishmashed and has a variety of aspects to it that create what is thought to be "true" today.
But here's the kicker. "And, as far as I'm concerned...I don't give a lick whether people choose to believe one book is the one and only truth...UNTIL they start attempting to force me to act in accordance with those beliefs too."
You call me a hater when I get down on Christmas which is a RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY. It has been for many thousands of years. People who don't enjoy Christmas are called Scrooges and are looked down upon, chastised, even by you. So if what you say is true, you shouldn't get down on people who don't want to celebrate the same way that our entire country does during that time of year. You should accept that they realize the preposterousness of some story that's been modified every time it goes from one culture to another.
All of religion is compartmentalizing. It just doesn't make sense. People going up into the clouds on a flaming chariot, people rising from the dead, talking burning bushes, etc. How about people try to think rationally and on that line think for themselves, then maybe we can agree on something, or at least agree to disagree because an argument was actually well thought out and not something that someone thought up over 2,000 years ago for a situation that couldn't possibly exist anymore.
If religion evolved as quickly as culture does then maybe I'd be less upset about it. But it's obvious that the Bible will remain the Bible and people are going to use it for its wisdom, even if it doesn't actually affect situations that are contemporary with our lives.
"I'm not devaluing them, I'm merely stating that they have deeper origins. OK, so maybe I am, but they're the one's who are saying that they are the TRUE faith, when a little bit of research can prove the contrary."
You ARE devaluing it. Like I said, it's one thing to devalue a religion that is claiming to be the only truth and that sort of thing. That's fine, I'm not taking issue with you devaluing Christianity, especially as it applies to your life specifically. It's an entirely different thing to completely devalue a holiday simply because it's an amalgamation of different cultural and religious traditions. A reason for celebration is a reason for celebration.
"And these faiths may not all be around anymore, but they were integral in spawning ALL of the Western religions that have survived through today: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wiccan, Greek/Russian Orthodox. Even New World cultures seem to have some stories that have a bit of overlapping. The moon is a female deity and dismemberment is a part of a resurrection story."
Uh. Yeah. So? I'm not arguing with any of that.
"I think what's cooler about the deconstruction is that maybe someday somebody will find a universal connection to all religions."
And again, I don't take issue with that. I think it's cool. I take issue with you using that to justify hating anything that might be vaguely connected to the religion you hate.
"And as for the celebration aspect, you obviously didn't read what I wrote. I said it's nice to get together with family, etc."
Yes I did:
"(edit: wrote that paragraph before reading your entire reply. Seeing your final paragraph...my reply is this: I think for must of us Christmas is exactly what you want it to be already. )"
"So if being ignorant of your culture is part of being human, then maybe I don't want to be human. Don't people want to know the story of their past? I mean, not the one that's just forced upon them, but the real one. The one that is mishmashed and has a variety of aspects to it that create what is thought to be "true" today." "
I never said being ignorant of your culture was part of the human condition. What I did say was:
"It is VERY HARD to look outside of the cultural mileau in which we were raised. Yes, people can do it...but by and large, the masses never have and they never will."
And I don't fault people for that on that fact alone. All of our brains work differently, we were all raised in different situations. The fact of the matter is, is that is just easier for some people to question than others.
"But here's the kicker. "And, as far as I'm concerned...I don't give a lick whether people choose to believe one book is the one and only truth...UNTIL they start attempting to force me to act in accordance with those beliefs too."
You call me a hater when I get down on Christmas which is a RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY. It has been for many thousands of years."
Except, like I already said: For most of us, it just isn't a religious holiday anymore. It's about getting together to eat and drink, to celebrate the time of year, to be with friends and family, to let them know they means something to us... And for those for whom it is (a religious holiday) how does does that affect you negatively? Is it really so bad if someone SAYS something religious to you? If they aren't trying to convert you and If they mean well? Is it really so awful for you to have to read "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" half a dozen times as people post in on their facebook status? How is that them forcing you to act in accordance with their beliefs? How is that more detrimental to you than you posting your atheist/historical perspectives?
When I say "until they start attempting to force me to act in accordance with those beliefs too." I'm talking about specifically what you mentioned- which is religious interference politically with our social lives. That's when things become problematic. Not when someone decides to be nice to me and pray for me, because they believe prayer helps...or when they decide to focus on the Jesus as the reason for Christmas because it's what they believe.
"People who don't enjoy Christmas are called Scrooges and are looked down upon, chastised, even by you. So if what you say is true, you shouldn't get down on people who don't want to celebrate the same way that our entire country does during that time of year. You should accept that they realize the preposterousness of some story that's been modified every time it goes from one culture to another."
What I get down on is the insistence of people such as yourself on ruining the enjoyment for other people without good reason or just because you're unhappy. And I get down on YOU SPECIFICALLY because you insist on ruing it for me. Heaven forbid you just do something because it might make me happy. That's why I get down on you. Not because you don't want to celebrate the way the rest of the country does, but because you are unwilling to allow me to celebrate the way I want and because you are unwilling to celebrate with me in a way that would make me happy. Because you are unwilling to indulge my harmless, but meaningful to me, traditions and because you are unwilling to start building new traditions with me. It's not like I'm asking you to go to church or do anything religious. It's not even like I'm going to church or doing anything religious. That is supposedly what you have a problem with yet, yet even when it doesn't involve that you can't let people just enjoy themselves, and you can't let me enjoy myself. All I'm asking for at Christmas is what you have said that you support, in this exact comment thread: Time to celebrate friends and family and winter. And yet you can't do it without making me feel bad about it.
"All of religion is compartmentalizing. It just doesn't make sense. People going up into the clouds on a flaming chariot, people rising from the dead, talking burning bushes, etc. How about people try to think rationally and on that line think for themselves, then maybe we can agree on something, or at least agree to disagree because an argument was actually well thought out and not something that someone thought up over 2,000 years ago for a situation that couldn't possibly exist anymore."
All of human existence is compartmentalizing. It always has been and it always will be. I believe that looking for supernatural answers is just as much a part of the human condition as is looking for scientific answers. It's all about the way our brains are wired. And I think they each have their values...science and spirituality. There is no reason they can't co-exist as people need or want them to. And, as I'm always telling you, far more people are willing to agree to disagree than you are willing to give them credit for. Even if we're talking purely about Christians, they aren't all so easily and narrowly categorized the way you think they are.
And I ask you AGAIN. Why does it matter to you if people choose to believe something that does not make sense to you, so long as they don't force it on you? You hate the idea of people believing in something illogical even if it doesn't affect you at all. That's just silly and a waste of your time and energy.
"If religion evolved as quickly as culture does then maybe I'd be less upset about it. But it's obvious that the Bible will remain the Bible and people are going to use it for its wisdom, even if it doesn't actually affect situations that are contemporary with our lives. "
I think it does sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't. Just look at the Protestant Reformation. That was a pretty fast religious evolution. For that matter, contemporary Christianity, as we think of it, is a pretty modern evolution too. It (religion) just doesn't always necessarily evolve in the same direction or at the same pace as culture at large. Fundamentalism is not a new concept and it is not limited to religious notions. It is natural for people to turn to what they view as archaic/ traditional ways when they feel their world is evolving too rapidly for them to actually cope or sustain the life they know. (Even when those traditional ways aren't actually very old or traditional at all...It only takes the passing of one generation for things to seem old. We humans are cursed by memories that only really mean anything during the lifetimes of those for whom the memories were actual experience.)
I said:
"And these faiths may not all be around anymore, but they were integral in spawning ALL of the Western religions that have survived through today: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wiccan, Greek/Russian Orthodox. Even New World cultures seem to have some stories that have a bit of overlapping. The moon is a female deity and dismemberment is a part of a resurrection story."
You said:
Uh. Yeah. So? I'm not arguing with any of that."
But you had just said:
"It's an entirely different thing to completely devalue a holiday simply because it's an amalgamation of different cultural and religious traditions. A reason for celebration is a reason for celebration."
You're contradicting yourself from one paragraph to the next.
As for Christmas, I said:
"You call me a hater when I get down on Christmas which is a RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY. It has been for many thousands of years."
You said:
"Except, like I already said: For most of us, it just isn't a religious holiday anymore."
Even if YOU don't call it a religious holiday it's still based on one and a large number of people get offended if you don't feel about these final days of the year in a similar fashion that they do. So when I voice my opinion, I get shot down and I'm the one that's saying that I'm keeping everyone else from enjoying themselves how they want to when I can't get away from the culture that surrounds the holiday, namely all the ridiculous decorating and frivolous spending and waste of energy just to make people feel "happy" because it takes them back to their childhood memories.
And it's not so much that I don't enjoy people saying "Jesus is the reason for the season" on facebook, although I'm not a fan, but when I put out shit that links to Childermas, a Catholic holiday, I get condemned.
I wish I could come up with an analogy of how it makes me feel, but I can't. I think it would have to be something on the order of people holding up aborted fetuses to get their voice heard and message seen. That's a bit more graphic, but the point is that I don't much care for it and I feel like it's being forced down my throat and there's no getting away from it. Imagine that being in every store you go to and with many people that you are forced to interact with in the day.
I fail to see how that's a contradiction at all.
I think today Christianity might be evolving more quickly than in the past and that may just be because information is able to move more quickly. However, I believe it took something like 1200 years before anyone was to step up to the Catholics within its own religion. Otherwise they were persecuted in the name of the Lord. Then it took another 500 years before evolution was considered a viable theory. So, depending upon your perception of time, I don't think it's been that quick. The theory of evolution was adopted by rational thinkers more than 200 years prior to that religion.
And just what the fuck is wrong with childhood memories? Why is it such a horrible thing to want to recreate the happy moments in your life? Why is it a bad thing to want to have a new happy memory created each and every year until you die? Especially when we live in a culture where there isn't much of a place for taking enjoyment out of the simple things in life for adults?
Really, what is so wrong with that?
The gross-commercialization, I agree, is completely a problem. But you act like it's all commercialization or religious, and it just isn't.
Not only do I not call it a religious holiday, but statistically speaking, it's not one in the USA anymore. Yes, SOME people get uptight about it...but that's mostly conservative news commentators and the few hundred thousand people they control. Most everyone else doesn't care about the religious nature of it, or care only marginally. Most people don't even go to church, even on Christmas. 44% of Americans go to Church regularly (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/december_2008/christians_at_christmas) That's not even half.
It doesn't NOT matter than Christmas has a religious foundation, however it only matters a little. It's only part of the picture. Because Christmas, just like any other cultural institution, is as much defined by what it is and what it will become, as it is by it's history. And Christmas is an institution that is RAPIDLY evolving away from being a religious celebration for most Americans.
I have NEVER seen or heard anyone shoot your down for voicing your opion about the religous nature of Christmas. In fact, the only people I've seen/heard shoot you down for your opinions on Christmas are me, my Aunt Betty and Johnny. And not a single one of us has taken issue with your religious problems with the holiday. We've taken issue with your overall hate-itude that you display even when I say something as innocent as "I'm enjoying Christmas music."
Who condemned you for putting that stuff out about Childermas? I didn't see that when I looked at that post...and I just tried to look, but it seems that maybe you've removed it from your facebook profile.
Regardless. My comment is that as long as you want to be free to argue with what people post on their facebook profiles, you should expect people to do the same on yours.
I just can't really understand why Christmas as a whole is so uncomfortable for you. It's not like you have any bad memories associated with it. I get not liking the religious nature of it...but I just can't empathize with your general attitude about it.
Meh. You'r acting like the Catholic Church as it existed at the point of the Protestant Reformation was the Catholic Church just as it existed for 1200 years prior. It wasn't. Not even close.
The theory of evolution was accepted by rational thinkers more than 200 years before religious thinkers huh?
That's funny. I was under the impression that On the Origin of the Species just turned 150 years old not quite a month and a half ago...
Fail to see the contradiction? OK
Me: Faiths today were made up of a mixture of religions. I don't enjoy the traditions but I appreciate the excuse to see family
You: You can't devalue a holiday because of its origin. A reason for celebrating is a reason to celebrate regardless of its origin.
So maybe it's not so much a contradiction, but a failure to realize that we're saying pretty much the same thing. The only difference is that I don't appreciate the consumerist culture that's surrounding us and you embrace it. So if I speak against it, then I'm the cultural heathen.
It's like you're accepting of the rich past that created the traditions we have today, but you're not willing to accept my wish to keep out of that and do my own thing.
See...we are in agreement here, until we aren't. I see no reason to get rid of what can be a fun, happy and beautiful time of the year just because it is tied to lots of lost and sometimes contradictory traditions. I see no reason to get rid of it just because parts of it are tied to the worst of what modern culture has to offer.
We are in agreement, mostly...
Except I don't embrace the consumerist culture as you seem to think that I do.
Do I like giving gifts? Yes. Absolutely. Do I like receiving gifts? Yes. Absolutely. It is FUN. I like to make those I love happy, I like to make them smile. I like them to know I have thought about them.
I like knowing the same in reverse when I get gifts.
WHO DOESN'T like getting gifts? People who say they don't are either lying or attempting to be modest.
But, I believe in reasonable and responsible gift giving. I don't believe in participating in gross consumerstic spending sprees like black friday. I believe in giving gifts that are more valuable in terms of meaning or utility than I do purely in terms of monetary value. And I believe in working hard to spend my money at places and on items that support my values.
Yes, I like Christmas lights and Christmas Decorations. Yes, this means Christmas lights must be purchased. But I like them because they are beautiful, not because they must be purchased. Yes, I like Christmas Music, but that is because it is fun and beautiful and because music speaks to us as humans, not because the music must be purchased. I know you can appreciate things purely for their beauty and aesthetic, because I have seen you purchase and own such items.
I would accept your "own thing" if you actually had your own thing. You don't. Your "own thing" is dogging on my thing. Your "own thing" is making snide remarks every time I dare to mention I might be enjoying something you think is silly. You don't have your own thing...Instead, I'm forced to defend my interest in the holidays all season long. I'm also forced to pretend it doesn't hurt my feelings that you have no interest in doing anything just because it might make me happy all the while I'm expected to bend over backwards catering to your happiness.
The very first attempt you have made at doing your "own thing" has been the past week, as you have spent digging deeper and deeper into the traditions of the various winter celebrations. I've not only allowed that, I've encourage it and been interested any time you wanted to share what you learned with me...
What is infinitesimally frustrating is that you don't see that.
"And just what the fuck is wrong with childhood memories? Why is it such a horrible thing to want to recreate the happy moments in your life? Why is it a bad thing to want to have a new happy memory created each and every year until you die?"
Do you really feel like perpetuating a lie to yourself, your children, and everyone else around you? Are you really a proponent of brain washing if this brain washing makes you happy?
I think I have some pills you could take. You can live in your imaginary world for as long as you'd like. I'd rather see the "truth" behind the matter.
Kids? That's a different issue. I don't know how I'm going to approach that issue until I'm forced to. But I think I'll find a happy medium between the implementation of the tradition and the history of the tradition.
"Not only do I not call it a religious holiday, but statistically speaking, it's not one in the USA anymore. Yes, SOME people get uptight about it...but that's mostly conservative news commentators and the few hundred thousand people they control."
The problem with this mentality is that you think it's a minority. And whether it is or not, it means that there are people out there who make this a sensitive subject which means that if I plan on not being confrontational then I have to walk on eggshells so I don't bother these people. There are many of them out there. I don't think it's a minority. 44% of people who are churchgoers doesn't mean that there isn't a larger percentage of people who believe in God but are too lazy or busy working their weekend job to go. I think you're underestimating the people out there.
"It doesn't NOT matter than Christmas has a religious foundation, however it only matters a little. It's only part of the picture. Because Christmas, just like any other cultural institution, is as much defined by what it is and what it will become, as it is by it's history. And Christmas is an institution that is RAPIDLY evolving away from being a religious celebration for most Americans."
First of all, I think it's rather religious, however in the economic world it's become just as bastardized in the religious one where people are prodded to buy bigger and better each year. It's completely ridiculous. People wouldn't have so many unnecessary trinkets or useless things if a gift wasn't required from friends and family EVERY DAMN YEAR.
I don't think I've ever removed a post from my facebook, so Childermas should still be there. Richard and Maureen commented, maybe not in a nasty way, but in a way that made it seem like they were uncomfortable. So maybe I don't have it so bad in that sense. I suppose generally on facebook if you're that uncomfortable with subject matter you either don't comment or you un-friend the person.
The reason why I take such an issue with Christmas is not because of any bad memories, but just because it's one of the two times in the year where being openly religious within our society is the norm. And I don't appreciate that norm. I speak out against it and I'm the one getting discriminated against. This is then the time of the year where I should voice my complaints about the religion because Christmas is really the poster-child of the faith.
And as I've tried to point out. This given faith is unfounded. There is a reason it exists, but it's not because the things that happened went down when and where they were said to. Even within the Bible you have four different versions of the life of Christ which occasionally contradict each other. It's just my feeling that if you're going to believe something, then you should look into it to see if what you believe if actually true. In this case, Christianity is based on what it says it is.
So you caught me with Darwin, but then I realized that people have been pondering the idea of evolution/natural selection since about 2000 years ago, namely with Lucretius. But somewhere in there religion stepped in and really hindered the progression of science in the name of something that can't even be proven true or not. But what we can prove to NOT be true is that Biblical stories were in fact original and not borrowed from other religions.
It's too bad copyrights didn't exist back in the day.
"I think I have some pills you could take. You can live in your imaginary world for as long as you'd like. I'd rather see the "truth" behind the matter."
See...and now you're just being an ass again. Because that's what you revert to when you've got no better way to make your point. Or maybe when you feel backed against a wall. Either way, being an asshole is uncalled for and isn't fair.
I don't see any reason you can't celebrate Christmas AND be aware of all the different directions from which its genesis sprang. I don't see any reason you can't enjoy the holiday season while also understanding it's cultural contexts. I fail to see how that is living in an imaginary world. I fail to see how that is hiding from the truth of the matter.
I fail to see how something such as the story "The Night Before Christmas" can't be a fun and enjoyable story regardless of the history of Santa or the person's belief in him. But then again, you don't see the point of fiction in general...so I shouldn't be surprised that you're general attitude is so narrow-minded and hateful.
I don't see any reason you can't teach your kids about these various histories and traditions too, at an age appropriate time, while also celebrating and enjoying the season.
It's cold, it's dark, there are months to go before we will see the sun for any prolonged time again. What else is there to do but come together inside and make merriment? What is so wrong with lighting up the darkness with some lights, buying (meaningful and reasonable) presents for the people who mean something to you, and telling your children (a lie yes, but a lie that never hurt any child) about Santa to provide them with a fun, happy childhood memory or two?
I don't see that as brainwashing. i see that as encouraging imagination and a happy outlook. The sort of imaginative play that leads to an easy belief in Santa Claus is perfectly natural for kids of the age who believe in him anyway...what is really wrong with that? What? That sort of imagination should be cultivated and encouraged.
It's not like it will last forever...and it's not like you can't talk about the history of Santa Claus with more and more depth as the child gets older.
I fail to see what is wrong with an adult taking child-like pleasure in things. It doesn't preclude having an understanding of anything. It just means you delight easily in the small pleasures life has to offer. That's not living in an imaginary world.
If you want to live a lie, that's cool, but it's not for me. And this also doesn't mean that I'm not going to go on about the fallacies of the religion as long as it's a major part of our culture, which sadly, might be for as long as I live.
I was being an asshole because you couldn't see my point otherwise. And now that you may, I'm getting called out for it. So it goes.
"And I ask you AGAIN. Why does it matter to you if people choose to believe something that does not make sense to you, so long as they don't force it on you? You hate the idea of people believing in something illogical even if it doesn't affect you at all. That's just silly and a waste of your time and energy."
And this is the part you don't get. It does affect me. I have to live with it. You want me to live with it and countless other people would as well.
Right. The thing is that while more than 44% of people do believe in god and are just too lazy or whatever.. THOSE PEOPLE, they aren't the ones you are complaining about. You are complaining about roughly half of the 44% who do attend church regularly.
Those are the people you're offending.
And you know what Travis? It doesn't matter what the issue is. There are always going to be large groups of people around whom you have to walk an egg shells.
Sure, it sucks...but if it's not one thing it's another with those people.
I think you continue to have a skewed perspective about religious people and the various level of involvement in religious institutions simply because you were brought up in a church and thus still have a lot of contact with those people.
I'm not under-estimating, you're over-estimating because your personal experience has skewed your outlook.
So...you're telling me that even though you get to spend approximately 47/52 weeks of every year without having to acknowledge that it's OK to be religious in public...that you STILL have an issue with those 4-5 weeks surrounding Christmas and Easter? Really? Even though you don't have to deal with it at all the rest of the year?
Sorry. But that's just ridiculous. What about all those people for whom they only get their way for 4-5 weeks a year?
You aren't discriminated against. You are responded to. I think you're tripping all over your privilege again.
How about, if you really want to make a change, you figure out a way to start voicing your complaints in a way so that you can actually make a change? Because all I've seen you do so far is harangue me. And I'm not doing any of the things you supposedly take issue with.
I don't celebrate Christmas because of the bible.I celebrate Christmas because it's a fun thing to do in the middle of winter. But I am the one you are constantly trying to change....all the while claiming that you are somehow being discriminated against.
Except I DO see your point.
And I am not living a lie. And I take issue...EXTREME ISSUE with your repeated assertion that I am.
You don't see mine. That's really the problem here. You don't see my point at all.
Which is that Christmas is fun.
It falls in the middle of winter.
It is dark.
It is cold.
But the light will soon be returning.
We are stuck inside.
With each other.
I see no reason to not celebrate it in a fun and secular way since there is nothing better to do when it's dark and cold out anyway.
But you can't give me even that.
You insist on making it all about religion...even when it's not. And for me it's not. Which means that Christmas that happens in our home, is not about religion. And you can't just let me have even that.
I see your point about religion. I agree with nearly all of your points about religion. The ones you've made here, and the ones you've made during the myriad other discussions we have had on this topic. I just don't see the point in denying people religion just so long as it doesn't harm anyone. And you do. You want people to get over it even it doesn't affect you or negatively affect anyone at all.
"Although a Christian holiday, Christmas is also widely celebrated by many non-Christians,[1][12] and some of its popular celebratory customs have pre-Christian or secular themes and origins."
ref: our beloved wikipedia
"I'm not under-estimating, you're over-estimating because your personal experience has skewed your outlook."
I see you're now the authority on the matter. Especially when the majority of the people who are hardcore Christian that I still deal with were from the PUBLIC school that I went to.
"What about all those people for whom they only get their way for 4-5 weeks a year?"
That's just ridiculous. You can't celebrate year-round. Otherwise would that really be celebrating?
"How about, if you really want to make a change, you figure out a way to start voicing your complaints in a way so that you can actually make a change? Because all I've seen you do so far is harangue me."
If you haven't noticed, this is MY blog. You're the one bringing shit to my blog.
"
It falls in the middle of winter.
It is dark.
It is cold.
But the light will soon be returning."
This is EXACTLY WHY people should celebrate. And this is also why the celebration was initially put into practice. Because it was dark and cold and more sunlight was on the way. At the time people anthropomorphized the sun and the other elements which made it easier to praise. This is why the ropes were taken off Saturn during the celebration of the return of the sun.
But today we buy shit and more shit to try to feed this happiness. We tie it to a dead white guy that now has nothing to do with our environment. The closest deity to him was a pastoralist and a fisherman. That's not quite the commander of the sun. But if we go one step up, then we've hit the mark. But in Christianity Jesus is almost more important than God because in their eyes, without his resurrection, (which I suppose is symbolic of the returning light) then there would be no reason to celebrate.
So after all of that, that was my original point. Celebrate celestial movements, because that means you'll soon be warm.
And that's something to celebrate.
You missed my point all together regarding the 4-5 weeks a year. My point was that you ONLY have to deal with overt religiosity for 4-5 weeks every year. That means for 9% of the year, the really religious people get openly express their religiosity without seeming weird.
My point was that you're kind of being a pussy complaining about having to deal with overt religiosity for such a small portion of the year. 92% of the year you get your way. 92% of the year people who are overtly religious do NOT seem like the norm. You get your way 92% of the time, but you just can't handle that you don't get it all the time.
Like I said, tripping all over your privilege.
This is the VERY FIRST time it has ever been brought to your space. Every single other time it's been on my facebook wall...but you've made all the same arguments there...so I guess you just have to shut up and deal with me making my same arguments on your space.
Inspite of all of that SUPPOSEDLY being your point, you have never let me just enjoy it for exactly those reasons. Never once in the three Christmases we have spent together have you let me enjoy it just because it's winter and Christmas is a nice way to break it up.
"WE" don't do any of the things you are saying "we" are doing. Some people are doing that, and you don't like that..FINE. But I have never, not once in the time since we have known each other, done any of these things you say "we" keep doing. And yet you won't get off my back and just fucking have fun with me.
And also, regarding presents, which are part of what you take such issues with...You yourself have read to me more than once in the passed week about how gift giving goes back really far with these winter celebrations. There is nothing new about that. The problem is not inherent with the gift giving...the problem is what our consumer culture has done to gift giving.
So if you only had to deal with discrimination 4-5 weeks out of the year, then that's OK, because it's not most of the year. Got it. I'll keep that in mind the next time someone gets sexually harassed.
I don't think that I am involved with any sort of privilege involving my stand on religion. Did you just see Jon Stewart's take on the topic? (I'll link to it when it's up on the internet. It aired (1/5/2010). Basically it's still a Christian dominant society that we live in and people who aren't affected by the overt Christianity or are Christians themselves don't seem to realize the privilege that they have. You've preached this to me; you should realize it when it happens outside of feminism.
"And also, regarding presents, which are part of what you take such issues with...You yourself have read to me more than once in the passed week about how gift giving goes back really far with these winter celebrations. There is nothing new about that. The problem is not inherent with the gift giving...the problem is what our consumer culture has done to gift giving."
This gift giving spawned partially from giving children up to sacrifice in order to make sure that the sun will return with lengthened periodicity in the future. But then it went to pieces that were part of the holiday -- ceramic lamps that were to help bring back more light. But now it's gone beyond that. I suppose I don't have too much of an issue with gift-giving. Just keep it modest and within reason.
No. That's not what I'm saying at all. I REALLY don't think you are being discriminated against just because people who are Christian are the "norm" for 4-5 weeks of the year. AND any attempts you make to claim that you are (being discriminated against) are really pretty spurious.
It's just like the argument that you're being discriminated against as a white guy just because more minorities are finally getting admitted to college.
What I AM saying is that you are whining because for 4-5 weeks of the year you have to actively confront feeling like part of a minority.
You, as a white, middle-class man, have not had to deal with being a minority very many times in your life, and you don't know how to handle that.
You are imbued with privilege regarding your stand on religion and when you are forced to confront something contrary to that stand it makes you uncomfortable. In spite of the vast majority of our country claiming to be spiritual in some way, the fact of the matter is that we live a in a pretty secular country during a pretty secular time where the average atheist (i.e. YOU) faces no real loss of liberty for their belief or lack there of. You have the privilege to be an atheist and not feel as though you are in a minority for 48 weeks out of every year...It is your privilege that leads you to feeling discriminated against for the other 4-5, even though no real discrimination of any sort happens.
The only time Christian privilege really becomes an issue in our culture is when you are running for some sort of political office. Otherwise, it is basically non-existent. Secular-privilege is almost entirely the way of our nation.
"Keep it modest and within reason." FUCK DUDE! This is EXACTLY what I have been telling you for the passed three years.
Oh. And I DID see Jon Stewart's take. And I reiterate something I said earlier in this thread. Those people, they are media commentators. They DO represent a very powerful faction in this country...but they represent a pretty small faction too.
"You, as a white, middle-class man, have not had to deal with being a minority very many times in your life, and you don't know how to handle that."
So are you saying this is good for me or something? This kind of implies that discrimination for ethnicities other than my own (because being male and white, I can't feel discriminated against according to you), is a good thing, and I should know how it feels. So I guess in that sense it's OK for other people to feel discriminated against because it makes them a better person.
"The only time Christian privilege really becomes an issue in our culture is when you are running for some sort of political office."
This must only be in your privileged world. This isn't my reality. If it wasn't such an issue then why is it an issue within politics? You know -- that thing that affects every individual's lives who lives within a country's boundaries. Electing political figures too is the culmination of people's feelings and shows how our society truly feels. If candidates didn't have to declare their Christianity, then I could say that we are a secularized country, but this obviously isn't the case.
"Oh. And I DID see Jon Stewart's take. And I reiterate something I said earlier in this thread. Those people, they are media commentators. They DO represent a very powerful faction in this country...but they represent a pretty small faction too."
Yes, media. The propagators of propaganda. They have no affect on anybody, especially those who choose to watch them. If people didn't feel the way they did, do you think they'd actually have viewers? That's a silly notion.
I didn't say you CAN'T be discriminated against. I did say what you are calling discrimination IS NOT, in fact, discrimination.
And the fact that you feel it is MIGHT be because you've never really had to deal with being discriminated against really.
I am saying that your attempt to claim you are being discriminated against by being "forced" to deal with the myriad aspects of the Christmas season is a pretty spurious argument.
As to whether or not it's good for you....Well, that's marginally debatable. I do think it's good for people who generally have privilege to experience what it is like to not have privilege. However, it's a line you have to walk carefully. Experiencing adversity is good, you just have to be careful depending on the cost.
Most politicians don't have to declare Christianity. They just have to be careful about declare lack of faith. But the fact is, these same people, for the most part, are not allowed to make decisions based on faith in our political environment. Yes, some people demand they do...but poll after poll has demonstrated that most Americans don't want their politicians acting on behalf of God. The only reason politicians must be careful to not declare a lack of faith is because we are still in the process of evolving to a secular society, and as such we have not yet, as a collective, figured out how to believe that someone is good and moral without religion. And this is why I say we are a mostly secular society.
UNLESS you plan to run for political office, religion or lack there of will not keep you from getting a job. Being overtly religious is actually more likely to keep you from getting a job in most sectors than the converse.
I didn't say the media didn't have any affect. I didn't say that at all. What I am saying is that just because THEY say it doesn't mean they believe it. What I am also saying is the the broadcasters he showed are from one network and one network only. While their viewership is currently a pretty vocal group, the fact remains that those people are a minority.
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